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Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

bbc.com

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Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#321

Post by account42 »

IAmBroom wrote: post #263
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But all those political divisions are a result of national politics of those countries. People want higher wages, less taxes, affordable housing, more recently cheaper gas/diesel, and in the last decade (or more in some places), less foreign migrants. If no other political party will do anything about that, people are forced to vote for Alternatives (intentionally capitalized). Especially after all the anti-russian p…

All that's being said is, "Russia is known to exploit political conflicts to harm their enemies". WHY those conflicts exist is irrelevant. No one is saying it absolutely, unquestionably was Russian interference. Just that it could be. EDIT: OK, at least one person is saying that. But most people are likely thinking, "Well, could be, might not be... dunno."

Why those conflicts exist is actually very relevant when those responsible for them keep using "wawawa russians" as a diversion to avoid doing anything about the issues. If both my local politicians and foreign countries are working against my interests I am going to first vote for better local politicians because at least there I am supposed to have agency.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#322

Post by consp »

Muximize wrote: post #112

Farmers protesting new nitrogen emissions regulation. They are also setting hay bales on fire next to highways. The rail sabotage is relatively harmless, the tracks use block signalling so if you use a conductive metal bar or jumper cables to connect the rails, the system thinks a train is present and the preceding signal will stay red.

The harm is in the cost. Not the actual danger. Or are they going to pay for the damages caused due to lost productivity?

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#323

Post by paganel »

subscribed wrote: post #308
paganel wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> also sells to the military... where have you been hiding? And the Western-built railway system has been used for war/military reasons since its very inception (almost), it's how Prussia got the best over the Habsburgs at Sadowa in the 1860s. One could also say that Tsarist Russia not yet having a rail connection to Crimea just before that caused them to be defeated against the Western incursion at Sevastopol.

One side is primarily targeting civilians and infrastructure, also committing acts of war crimes, other is targeting exclusively infrastructure used by the military. Yeah, yeah, I know you'd love to paint your comrades as the poor military attacked from the all sides, but we all know had they not invade Crimea and then start all-out war against civilian targets, they'd live peacefully today. I hope western countries…

> I hope western countries will respond in kind with the mass sabotage acts

I live in Bucharest, the closest NATO capital to the clusterfuck in Southern Ukraine, when you'll get conscripted/when you'll volunteer and when you'll arrive here at Bucharest Northern Railway station just ping me, I'll be very happy to help a HN-er who thinks he's fighting for the right cause. Cause you are a NATO citizen, aren't you? Meaning you're not using those threats just because.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#324

Post by account42 »

DrScientist wrote: post #217
pjc50 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really Western Europe has been ignoring Russia's war for far too long; the MH17 shootdown was in 2014 and the situation has only deteriorated since then.

Not sure how MH17 shooting is relevant here. While the consensus is that it's likely a Russia controlled/allied battery shot it down - I'm not sure anybody thinks it was anything other than an accident, not an intentional act of sabotage.

If it was a Russian weapon (which is the most likely explanation) then it was the result of them meddling where they shouldn't be - either by supplying separatists with military equipment or by being there themselves, i.e. a part of their ongoing expansionist campaign in Ukraine.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#325

Post by feoren »

account42 wrote: post #307
vincnetas wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you mean "fair game"? by the same logic russia attacking ukraine is also "fair game". "hei cmon im just atacking my neighbor its fair game, what else should i do"

Let's say I pay someone to punch you int the face every day. Then one day when you punch me in the face do I have a right to complain?

Your analogy is way off base. This is how you've framed it:

> Let's say I [the Netherlands] pay [!?] someone [Ukraine] to punch you [Russia] int the face every day. Then one day when you [Russia] punch me [Ukraine] in the face do I have a right to complain?

Ukraine is defending itself, and nobody is paying Ukraine to do that. Russia is the aggressor here. It's weird that I need to point that out. We're talking about Russia sabotaging someone for selling defensive capabilities to Ukraine. So a better analogy is this:

Let's say I punch you in the face every day. Then one day you buy a baseball bat from Gart Sports to defend yourself, so I go in and punch the manager of Gart Sports. Am I in the wrong?

Yes, very obviously, when you frame the analogy correctly, you are in the wrong.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#326

Post by TFYS »

brookst wrote: post #269
spwa4 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ideal scenario is everyone suspects it's you but can't prove it. Why? EU countries have shown time and time again they won't do anything. I mean for God's sake, Russia was caught sending THREE remote controlled flying bomb on a German airfield, with another one found by a passerby before it was launched. They contained professionally made Russian explosives. There is no doubt who did it. This was not the first,…

Because being too blatant will galvanize the public and create support for open war. The goal is to ensure all reasonable people know, while keeping enough deniability that Russian-funded right-wing groups can sow doubt about attribution and response policy’s They don’t care whether it can be proven in court or by people paying close attention. They care whether it can’t be denied even by their aligned agents in west…

Maybe it depends on the country, but here the public automatically assumes everything like this done by Russia and these increase support for open war. I don't think Russia wants deeper European involvement in the war, so I'm having trouble understanding why Russia would be doing this. They're already having difficulties in Ukraine, how would angering the European public and increasing the support for further involvement help Russia achieve its goals?

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#327

Post by hofiflo »

earth-tattoo wrote: post #223

Europeans really hates sabotage when it happens to them. Nobody blinked an eye when Nord Stream (a civilian infrastructure) was blown up.

That’s not true. It was (and is) a huge thing in the German news and public discussion, especially now that it’s brought up again with recent arrests of suspects, the explosives targeting cargo airports, etc.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#328

Post by account42 »

pibaker wrote: post #172
pprotas wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely organized by farmer protest groups (FDF for example) to protest against emission restriction regulation. They are known for their dangerous stunts, including driving their tractors on the highway and spraying manure on government buildings. These actions are tolerated by the Dutch police, which willingly and purposefully refuses to punish these acts.

It's crazy how much deference is given to farmers compared to every other occupation. If the garbage men started dumping the contents of garbage bags in public places I bet they will not be given a free pass.

It's almost as if food security is much more important than most other jobs.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#329

Post by marcusverus »

All the Russia conspiracism in here reminds me of the claims that they blew up their own pipeline. The cost/benefit analysis of that situation was so obviously out of whack that no serious person should could have considered it to be a possibility.

This case is more plausible than that one was, but not by much. How could the benefit from derailing a few trains possibly justify the risk of A) more sanctions, and B) triggering NATO's Article V? The benefit of these operations is what, slowing trains down by one day? The 2022 sanctions on Russia have lowered their GDP by 6% by some estimates, which is the equivalent of turning the entire Russian economy off for three weeks of the year, every year. The notion that Russia would risk war and/or crippling sanctions to mildly inconvenience a tiny share of rail customers in The Netherlands is simply absurd. Putin makes plenty of mistakes, but he remains a shrewd adversary, and he is certainly not stupid.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#330

Post by account42 »

nmeofthestate wrote: post #222
lmf4lol wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you explain how Dutch farmers are being disinformed by Russian intelligence services? I am REALLy curious.

Russia spends a huge amount on manipulating western citizens via the internet, let's not play dumb about that. You may not think that it has any effect, but apparently Russian intelligence does.

So the gas prices are all in their heads put there by Russian trolls, as are the other government policies that affect them?
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