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Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

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351–360 of 522 posts

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The recommendation is qualified for typical apps that do not have extreme performance or scale requirements. They use Java for many, many things. C++ is still indicated for systems that are optimizing for performance and scalability characteristics, since it intrinsically requires a lot of "unsafe" constructs.

> C++ is still indicated for systems that are optimizing for performance The only evidence I've seen for this is that people with a vested interest in my believing this keep saying it is true. That's the exact same evidence I have for Trump having triumphed in Iran. Do better if you want me to believe you. > since it intrinsically requires a lot of "unsafe" constructs. This is an excellent reason to choose Rust. The…

> This is an excellent reason to choose Rust. The whole point of Rust's technology is to enable you to encapsulate the tricky difficult part of the problem so that people don't blow their foot off working on the mundane parts of the software. And the truth is there are always mundane parts of the software.

The problem is that it actually sucks for dealing with the encapsulated parts. The reason everyone loves Rust is because they can just import a package where somebody else did the hard part for them and not worry their pretty little brains about a thing, getting high performance with minimal concern. That is a valid advantage, and that does make more mundane usage of the language safer. But it does not make the unsafe parts safer. There is every reason for having unsafe-oriented languages with ergonomics that actually make working with unsafe code more reliable too. The annoying thing about Rust is that 90% of its users are religious dogmatists who insist that Rust is the only valid language rather than accepting different languages can have different advantages, and moreover that 90% is basically the 90% who are benefitting from Rust while not being the ones who have to write unsafe code themselves.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#352

I've been writing Rust professionally for the last 5 years (where my first decade of professional experience started in frontend, then moved down the stack TypeScript/Node, Go, C# and so on). From the perspective of high level application development, I can't see a technical use case for a language other than Rust these days. If wasm worked (and MacOS/Windows/Android/iOS native UI support existed), I would write my b…

If wasm worked is a pretty big caveat still. DOM APIs are still significantly slower in rust using wasm than pure js last I checked.

Yes, that contributes to the "if it actually worked" sentiment.

It doesn't have to be slow, if the browser exposed C-like ABI for DOM access and web APIs like LocalStorage, the FileSystem API, ServiceWorker, etc - Rust bindings can be made and that boundary could be well optimised.

All we need is;

The rest is just browser optimisations.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#353
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPU programming?

Rust is great for GPU programming, or at least for writing the Host (CPU) side without friction. WGPU or FFI-based Vulkan etc bindings for graphics. Cudarc + normal Cuda kernels for general purpose compute. I bring these up as they're easy-to-use and mature.

thanks for the pointer, I will check them out

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#354

I've been writing Rust professionally for the last 5 years (where my first decade of professional experience started in frontend, then moved down the stack TypeScript/Node, Go, C# and so on). From the perspective of high level application development, I can't see a technical use case for a language other than Rust these days. If wasm worked (and MacOS/Windows/Android/iOS native UI support existed), I would write my b…

> From the perspective of high level application development, I can't see a technical use case for a language other than Rust.

Bit of a red flag if you really can't.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#356
post #41

If it is a tier-1 language why isn't it supported in Visual Studio?

Because it takes time. Even with coding agents, to add the capability. Then, there is the question on whether Rust developers who like to engage with Microsoft tools, would really consider Visual Studio as their IDE, instead of something like VS Code, VS Code Agent Mode, GitHub Copilot App, or GitHub Copilot CLI with simpler editors. I'd be curious to know whether Rust developers believe Visual Studio is the right pl…

> Because it takes time.

That's an excuse, not the reason.

IntelliJ RustRover has been around for years.

Similarly, VS Code has had Rust plugins written by the community in their spare time years ago.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The recommendation is qualified for typical apps that do not have extreme performance or scale requirements. They use Java for many, many things. C++ is still indicated for systems that are optimizing for performance and scalability characteristics, since it intrinsically requires a lot of "unsafe" constructs.

> C++ is still indicated for systems that are optimizing for performance The only evidence I've seen for this is that people with a vested interest in my believing this keep saying it is true. That's the exact same evidence I have for Trump having triumphed in Iran. Do better if you want me to believe you. > since it intrinsically requires a lot of "unsafe" constructs. This is an excellent reason to choose Rust. The…

Tangent: your comment would have been stronger without the politics.

Btw, Rust ain't the only vector here. With an LLM at your side, you can also write your performance and safety critical parts in Lean and prove them correct.

Lean can compile to some pretty fast code. (Though it needs a bit more engineering work around eg SIMD to get really fast.)

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#358
post #122

Those interested in this may find the following articles of interest: Microsoft goals [edit: err, Microsoft hiring manager vision-casting goal ] to convert 1 billion lines of code to rust by 2030 via automated tooling enabling "1 engineer, 1 month, 1 million lines of code": https://thenewstack.io/microsofts-bold-goal-replace-1b-lines... DARPA work towards automating converting C code to Rust using a mix of 6 differen…

That is not "Microsoft goals", that is "one employee's LinkedIn comment of his personal goal".

what's your point?

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#360
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What with this llms not so good in rust mantra? Something changed? In my experience they are pretty good, but haters gonna hate.

LLMs are unusually good at Rust; it's an optimization target. And the constraints provided by "successfully compile with the Rust compiler" make it work well for agent iteration. (I have mixed feelings about that, but empirically it holds true.)

Yes, I found these agents to be better at producing acceptable Rust than at producing acceptable Python code.

In addition to the Rust compiler, you can also tell them to make clippy happy. Both in normal mode or if you are feeling nitpicky, you can also tell them to make clippy::pedantic happy.

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