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NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

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Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#61
post #40
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was public information before this interactive map.

Sure, but the criminal element isn't exactly known for its high IQ. By making it easily accessible, you are inviting abuse and ultimately, the political will to make that public information private. On top of everything, the law of unintended consequences is at play here. I wouldn't worry about somebody breaking in to steal your gun ... I would worry about the neighbor who doesn't show up on the map. I can rob him wi…

You're making a lot of assumptions.. "Sure, but the criminal element isn't exactly known for its high IQ." ... considering the revenue size of most types of crime there are plenty of smart criminals, and crime organizations that use computation to calculate, and mitigate risk.

"I would worry about the neighbor who doesn't show up on the map. I can rob him without worrying about being shot." Considering gun ownership rate of 50% in the u.s. and per capita rate of near 90%.. Most houses have guns independent of registration, and lot have 2. So in general a criminal must assume there is a gun in the house.. Therefor most criminals have 2 main factors when picking a house to rob.. 1. Is anyone home 2. Is there a dog

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#62
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which kind of compact items do you have in mind that are regulated by police bureaucracy? Also, read the OP. This is a map of permit holders, not of gun owners.

>This is a map of permit holders, not of gun owners. Let's hope for a moment that you have some evidence that some nontrivial portion of the people who pay hundreds of dollars for a permit do so without then subsequently purchasing a firearm, so that we can't just facially dismiss your distinction because of the effective 1:1 correlation between permit holders and gun owners. Perhaps a lot of people hold permits so t…

Sorry, but the onus is on you to prove, or at least argue, that burglars use this information to raid houses at a higher rate than they would otherwise do so. This is how the law and public records work. Keep in mind using the "it puts people at risk" argument is basically the stock argument for preventing the disclosure of many, many types of public records.

But since we're talking hypotheticals, my main point is this: you've imagined a savvy burglar who apparently has no easier means of getting firearms than to burglar a home. That being the case, this burglar has to weigh a number of specific factors, including the possibility that said home may not actually have a handgun (nevemrind whether it's easy to find).

At what point does the burglar make his/her burglary decisions based on other factors: such as, how obvious it is that someone is home, and how rich that person is (easily judged by looking at the home or consulting business/assessor records)?

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#63
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> make people think that anyone who owns a gun might just walk into a crowded place and start shooting. That's exactly how a particular side of the debate wants to frame the issue. It's a notion that "ordinary" people aren't capable of responsibly making life-or-death decisions. That guns have to be a monopoly of "extraordinary" people -- police and miliatry -- who are working for the state. (As if they aren't themse…

>That's exactly how a particular side of the debate wants to frame the issue. And these strawman arguments being tossed around is exactly why we can't have a productive discussion regarding guns in this country. When you insist on turning the other side into a ridiculous caricature, why do you expect to be taken seriously?

I don't know who you're accusing of "turning the other side into a ridiculous caricature," me or the paper. But I'll respond as if the answer to this question is "me."

Let's imagine they published a list of all the African-Americans in their area instead. What's your gut reaction?

It could be claimed to be just a matter-of-fact reporting of data obtained in a routine government census.

But I have a feeling that race, in this country, is such a divisive issue that a lot of readers -- of all positions on the issue of race, and both African-Americans and non-African-Americans -- would read into it an implication of Us versus Them, that we should be Concerned about the distribution of African-Americans. Many readers would see an implication that this piece is supposed to be an eye-opener, deemed worthy of newspaper publication on the angle of "You may think your neighborhood doesn't have any African-Americans, but actually they're everywhere."

Now re-read the previous two paragraphs, but replace the word "race" with "gun control," and "African-Americans" with "gun owners."

I will admit that I'm deliberately making the argument as bald as possible, in a way that makes it as easy as possible to see the fallacy. When you read the way I explain it, you may say "No one believes that!"

And I would agree that almost no one consciously believes that. But a lot of human thinking is unconscious, not based on reasons, facts, and observations. Sometimes this unconscious reasoning is based on tribal psychology, Us versus Them, and that's what this article is speaking to.

Since the argument's not laid out in plain terms, it may escape the reader's conscious thought process. But if it doesn't escape the unconscious thought process -- if it makes you feel "With all the news about gun violence lately, and all those gun owners around, I don't feel safe...someone should really do something about all those gun owners..." it can sway a person's position without capturing their full attention or being subjected to the scrutiny of the rational mind.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_Control_Regulations_Ac...

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#64
post #46
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the criminal element isn't exactly known for its high IQ. By making it easily accessible, you are inviting abuse and ultimately, the political will to make that public information private. On top of everything, the law of unintended consequences is at play here. I wouldn't worry about somebody breaking in to steal your gun ... I would worry about the neighbor who doesn't show up on the map. I can rob him wi…

You're basically arguing against the visualization of information. Just think of how dumb that is. You might as well argue to publish all government data in Klingon, it will make the life of dumb criminals even harder.

> You're basically arguing against the visualization of information.

Not really. The data isn't online. If anything, I'm arguing for keeping it analog?

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#65
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're blaming the website for showing some publicly available information in a more accessible form? That's security by obscurity. So not security.

Security by obscurity refers to a principle where a system designer attempts to use secrecy of design and implementation to provide security. The key word is secrecy. That does not fit the definition here. The information of registered gun owners is already public. In other words, it is not secret. What is questioned is this: who will benefit more from having the information available via an interactive map? Regular…

> The only thing we need to fear is crazy people who have guns. And that's a relatively easy problem to address: require thorough mental and background checks for anyone who wants to buy a gun.

This statement contains at least two problematic assumptions: 1) Only people who have committed violent crimes in the past will commit them in the future. (see: "background checks") 2) People who are mentally ill are inherently dangerous, or at the very least "could be" (see: "mental checks", "crazy people")

The problem with (1) is that a background check will not reveal very much for most folks. Sure, if you've got a lifetime of criminal mischief, a felony or two, that will show up. But that time you argued with someone and threw a brick through their window, but the judge let you off with a "public disturbance" - not gonna show up. For the vast majority of the country, a background report would not be a useful or helpful qualifier. For the worst of the worst, we can't pretend a black market on guns doesn't exist, so it would not help there, either.

The problem with (2) is that you have now decided to deny what is otherwise a fundamental right, guaranteed in (an amendment to) the Constitution to all citizens of legal age. Your logic for stripping a large number of citizens of this right is that some of them might do bad things with it. There is no clinical diagnosis for "is likely to go apeshit and shoot someone" - in fact even among schizophrenics there's no clear indicator of "violent tendencies", let alone an actual predictor.

Another problem with (2) is that you assume that mental health is constant throughout a lifetime. If I'm 18 and go in for a comprehensive mental status evaluation, I may come out just fine and start buying guns. But what happens if I present as Bipolar at 30? Schizophrenic at 40? Do you get to come and take away all my guns at that point? Should that be the duty of a psychiatrist - to determine who is allowed to own weapons? What if the psychiatrist gets it wrong, are they liable? Even if we assume somehow a psychiatrist was able to make that diagnosis and be right 99% of the time, you've now introduced a fairly major reason NOT to seek mental health care - they may take away your guns (or prevent you from getting one).

Sadly, throwing out "it's only crazy people with guns" is a somewhat disingenuous statement. Most gun homicides in the US are committed criminal-on-criminal, or criminal-on-victim. Very few are acts of "a crazy person", and even in those cases very few have ever been diagnosed with or presented psychotic symptoms prior to the commission of a gun-related homicide.

I therefore reject your guarantee that it would "actually make us safer". I also am pretty sure it would run afoul of ADA, and the 2nd Amendment, though that's a question for expensive lawyers.

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#66
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are assault rifles licensed separately?

True assault rifles are some of the most difficult things to get your hands on. All automatic (which include burst fire) weapons count as machine guns under the National Firearms Act, and are highly regulated. No machinegun made and registered after 1986 can be legally transferred between civilians. Amongst other difficulties and regulation, that restriction means automatic weapons typically sell for enormous amounts…

Thank you. Does the NRA not consider the (effective) ban on machine guns a violation of the second amendment?

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#67
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True assault rifles are some of the most difficult things to get your hands on. All automatic (which include burst fire) weapons count as machine guns under the National Firearms Act, and are highly regulated. No machinegun made and registered after 1986 can be legally transferred between civilians. Amongst other difficulties and regulation, that restriction means automatic weapons typically sell for enormous amounts…

Thank you. Does the NRA not consider the (effective) ban on machine guns a violation of the second amendment?

Not really an authority on this issue, but regardless of the feelings of their current members, it's really not a battle worth fighting. The amount of financial and political capital required is staggering.

That said, at the time, the NRA supported the both the laws that effectively ban machine guns. The NRA's stance on gun control, as well as what the NRA itself stands for has changed throughout its history.

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