NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders • Hacker News Board

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#51

Post by hughlomas » Tue, Dec 25, 2012, 2:25 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #35

gojomo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be an effect, but while some criminals want to avoid a confrontation with a gun-wielding resident... others want to steal guns. By helping criminals self-sort to the right targets for the risks they prefer, the net effect on crime/safety could be negative, by shifting break-ins to where they are most likely to succeed.

Is gun theft ever really that much of a specific goal? Seems guns are easy enough to get on the street that breaking into a house just to steal guns has a much higher risk than is normally necessary. EDIT: Well that didn't take long to acquire a silent Reddit-style "independent-thought downvote."

Yes, especially if you simply observe a house known to have guns and take them when the owners are not home.

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#52

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Dec 25, 2012, 2:29 AM UTC

danso wrote: post #47

waterlesscloud wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a map of compact items with a high street resale value? That's what this is.

Which kind of compact items do you have in mind that are regulated by police bureaucracy? Also, read the OP. This is a map of permit holders, not of gun owners.

>This is a map of permit holders, not of gun owners.

Let's hope for a moment that you have some evidence that some nontrivial portion of the people who pay hundreds of dollars for a permit do so without then subsequently purchasing a firearm, so that we can't just facially dismiss your distinction because of the effective 1:1 correlation between permit holders and gun owners. Perhaps a lot of people hold permits so that they can possess guns they don't actually own, for some reason.

There is still a bit of trouble. It's a permit to possess a gun. Even if the permit holder doesn't own the gun, it would be totally irrational to even get the permit unless they were going to possess one. And the thief is looking to steal it from the person who possesses it, not the person who owns it (when they aren't the same person).

So I guess I don't understand your point.

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#53

Post by enraged_camel » Tue, Dec 25, 2012, 2:29 AM UTC

rorrr wrote: post #43

enraged_camel wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really matter in this case. Browsing public registries manually is one thing, having an interactive map is another. The latter makes it orders of magnitude easier to do what the original commenter suggested.

So you're blaming the website for showing some publicly available information in a more accessible form? That's security by obscurity. So not security.

Security by obscurity refers to a principle where a system designer attempts to use secrecy of design and implementation to provide security. The key word is secrecy.

That does not fit the definition here. The information of registered gun owners is already public. In other words, it is not secret. What is questioned is this: who will benefit more from having the information available via an interactive map? Regular citizens who don't break into others' houses don't have much to fear anyway. On the other hand, those who are interested in stealing guns and selling them on the black market now have a wonderful new tool at their disposal.

Let me give a more specific example. I'm an avid biker, and have assembled and traded many bikes. One thing us bikers do when we sell our used bikes to others is that we never meet them at our home. Rather, we agree on a neutral place, like a gas station. You know why? Because if the buyer knows where we live, then there's the risk that they will break into our home and steal our bikes. This is actually something that happens on a fairly regular basis, mostly to those who are not experienced sellers.

Exact same concern applies here. Bikes are registered too, but you don't see an interactive map of registered bikers, do you? As such, the only conclusion we can reach here is that this newspaper is simply fueling the gun scare.

I would actually argue that this is more of a case of security theater. The reason is this: we don't need to fear guns. The only thing we need to fear is crazy people who have guns. And that's a relatively easy problem to address: require thorough mental and background checks for anyone who wants to buy a gun. I guarantee that that would actually make us safer, rather than giving us the illusion of safety (therefore making us less safe).

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#54

Post by subsystem » Tue, Dec 25, 2012, 2:30 AM UTC

maratd wrote: post #40

rorrr wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was public information before this interactive map.

Sure, but the criminal element isn't exactly known for its high IQ. By making it easily accessible, you are inviting abuse and ultimately, the political will to make that public information private. On top of everything, the law of unintended consequences is at play here. I wouldn't worry about somebody breaking in to steal your gun ... I would worry about the neighbor who doesn't show up on the map. I can rob him wi…

I would be worry about the neighbor who doesn't have someone collect his mail when he's on vacation. First rule of self-defense: try to avoid the situation in the first place.

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#55

Post by rhizome » Tue, Dec 25, 2012, 2:35 AM UTC

hughlomas wrote: post #51

rhizome wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is gun theft ever really that much of a specific goal? Seems guns are easy enough to get on the street that breaking into a house just to steal guns has a much higher risk than is normally necessary. EDIT: Well that didn't take long to acquire a silent Reddit-style "independent-thought downvote."

Yes, especially if you simply observe a house known to have guns and take them when the owners are not home.

I realize how the concept of theft works.

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#56

Post by rhizome » Tue, Dec 25, 2012, 2:37 AM UTC

Anechoic wrote: post #38

rhizome wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is gun theft ever really that much of a specific goal? Seems guns are easy enough to get on the street that breaking into a house just to steal guns has a much higher risk than is normally necessary. EDIT: Well that didn't take long to acquire a silent Reddit-style "independent-thought downvote."

You'd be suprised: http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/11/thieves_break...

That's one instance with a very large (no?) safe. I was asking about the prevalence of that kind of crime, not whether it had ever happened before in the history of weapons, or theft itself.

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#57

Post by edj » Tue, Dec 25, 2012, 2:38 AM UTC

danso wrote: post #49

edj wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more, this may well provide data for would-be gun thieves to use to acquire illegal weapons. Now that they have a convenient list, they can stake out these locations, wait for the residents to leave, and break in to begin their search for guns they know will be inside.

Ok, ignoring the fact that this is a map of permits, you do realize that there are different kinds of permits, right? Someone's permit could be for business, which means the handgun,if they even have one, may not even be at the house. Or worse, it's conceal and carry, which means if the owner comes home when the burglar is vainly trying to find the gun, that burglar is in trouble. I know burglars may be low lifes, bu…

Ok, ignoring the fact that this is a map of permits

Why would you ignore that this is a map? That's the point - the data is now conveniently visualized as a map...

Someone's permit could be for business, which means the handgun,if they even have one, may not even be at the house.

True. And your argument would be further strengthened if you pointed out that some of these are 5-year permits and some are lifetime permits. So, many of these individuals may have sold their guns, died, moved out of state, etc.

Or worse, it's conceal and carry

CCW permits are very, very difficult to get in New York.

I know burglars may be low lifes, but they're also kind of lazy. The time it would take to thoroughly research a gun burglary could be sent going to another state and buying legal guns by the bundle.

I have no idea how likely it is that criminals would use this data, only that it's now much more convenient for them to do so.

Obviously non-felons have a much easier time getting guns. People who steal guns or buy illegal guns usually aren't allowed to buy them, most likely because they are already felons.

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#58

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Dec 25, 2012, 2:47 AM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #28

Despite recent events, the worst year for mass gun shootings was 1929. Looking at the 2011 preliminary data[1] death by Assault (homicide) dropped out of the top 15 causes of death in the USA. It is still more dangerous for parents to own a swimming pool as opposed to a gun. We don't teach actual risks and pay for it daily. Stunts like this just paint targets on people. Gun owners will be targets for theft of guns. N…

> Gun owners will be targets for theft of guns. Non-gun owners will be targeted by other types of criminals.

And let's not forget the corollary of the first one: It's not just that gun owners have their property stolen. It's that criminals (who may be felons ineligible to purchase them from legal channels) come into possession of those firearms.

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#59

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Dec 25, 2012, 2:58 AM UTC

jdonahue wrote: post #45

enraged_camel wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really matter in this case. Browsing public registries manually is one thing, having an interactive map is another. The latter makes it orders of magnitude easier to do what the original commenter suggested.

From a 'security' perspective, this seems like an objectively good thing to me. If having this data publicly available is a good thing, then this map is a good thing - the more exposure, the better. If it's a bad thing, then the higher exposure resulting from this makes it more likely that a change in policy will happen. The status quo (prior to the publication of this map) was that the information is publicly availa…

>From a 'security' perspective, this seems like an objectively good thing to me. ... The status quo (prior to the publication of this map) was that the information is publicly available but only a few people were aware of it. I can't imagine any argument for that being the optimal situation.

You can have something which is worse than the status quo even when the status quo is not optimal. In particular, exacerbating a problem in the hope that it spurs people to address it is only a positive if it spurs people to address it. If not, you've only enlarged the scope of the problem.

Re: NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders

#60

Post by danso » Tue, Dec 25, 2012, 3:03 AM UTC

edj wrote: post #57

danso wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, ignoring the fact that this is a map of permits, you do realize that there are different kinds of permits, right? Someone's permit could be for business, which means the handgun,if they even have one, may not even be at the house. Or worse, it's conceal and carry, which means if the owner comes home when the burglar is vainly trying to find the gun, that burglar is in trouble. I know burglars may be low lifes, bu…

Ok, ignoring the fact that this is a map of permits Why would you ignore that this is a map? That's the point - the data is now conveniently visualized as a map... Someone's permit could be for business, which means the handgun,if they even have one, may not even be at the house. True. And your argument would be further strengthened if you pointed out that some of these are 5-year permits and some are lifetime permit…

- I said "ignoring the fact that this is a map of permits" because you seemed to be under the impression that this was a map of guns. Or even a map of gun owners. It is neither. You can get a license and not own a gun.

- As you said, CCW is hard to get in NY, and many other states that are not shall-issue. In fact, to get a CCW permit in such a state, you often need political or business connections, which is why an accounting of who gets these favors is sometimes called for.

- I have no idea how likely it is that criminals would use this data, only that it's now much more convenient for them to do so.

Hello, you have just used the line of reasoning used by virtually every public information officer concerning virtually every type of public record: We don't know exactly how criminals will use it or have any empirical evidence showing that they systematically use such information, but just to be safe, we will not release this information

David Simon, a former cops reporter and creator of The Wire, wrote an excellent piece a few years ago about how the police hiding public records under the guise of safety helped cover-up a police officer's incompetence: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02...