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The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

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Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#61

Post by rdm_blackhole »

atq2119 wrote: post #38
cyberpunk wrote: post #3

When no political party is willing to address the immigration issue that clearly is forefront on the minds of such AFD voters, what did you expect them to do? Vote CDU? Do we all think that another 8, 10 years of being "firewalled" out of national poltitics and being told they're all nazis (I'm sure some of them are, but nowhere near all) is going to make them less or more extreme? It's hard work making a society tha…

> the immigration issue that clearly is forefront on the minds of such AFD voters, Let's be real: this "issue" is a strawman. It doesn't really exist, especially in that part of Germany. Just like pretty much everywhere else, the German anti-immigrant far right is strongest in the areas with the fewest immigrants. This is not to say that the wave of immigration that is now more than 10 years past didn't have its chal…

> Let's be real: this "issue" is a strawman. It doesn't really exist, especially in that part of Germany. Just like pretty much everywhere else, the German anti-immigrant far right is strongest in the areas with the fewest immigrants

This is not a strawman. Even if you believe that the AFD is not correct in its diagnosis of the problems, why are you saying something that is a complete lie: https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/54441/germany-net-migra...

According to this organization which sits on the complete on opposite spectrum of the right/far-right, they write that 2.7M people immigrants moved to Germany in 2022 with a net inflow of 1.5M in a single year.

According to the same organization, today, immigrants make-up at least 20% of the German population and that's from an article from 2024 so that number is probably low. So if we extrapolate roughly 1 in 4 people living in Germany are not German.

That is exactly why the AFD is rising, people just bury their heads in the sand and pretend that there is no problem at all.

But I guess its easier to think that 44% of the inhabitants of Saxony-Anhalt are secretly Nazies than admitting that something must change. Lets continue doing that, its been working so well so far!

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#62

Post by majorchord »

cute_boi wrote: post #35

I don't understand why we even give the right an opportunity to speak on immigration. Is it really that hard to allow only legal immigration and stop giving incentives to illegal immigrants? I understand that there may be around 5% of people who are genuinely trying to escape dictatorships, but if 95% are just gaming the system, it's going to look very bad.

> I don't understand why we even give the right an opportunity to speak on immigration

"People I disagree with should not have a right to speak"

I don't know about you, but to me this sounds exactly like the type of fascist rhetoric everyone warns about.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#63

Post by sajithdilshan »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #11
cyberpunk wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a feeling that the majority of AFD voters simply want some kind of change and action on what they are seeing happen in Germany. I'm definitely not one of them, (and being an auslander myself I have skin in this game) -- this is a failure of the other parties more than it's a victory for AFD. But then again, that's all it takes really.

If you're a foreigner who's rooting for the fascists, you're an idiot. They want to deport you.

So what? Is he only allowed to play victim? What kind of a dumb logic is that

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#64

Post by sajithdilshan »

cute_boi wrote: post #58
sajithdilshan wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irony is that the after naturalisation, the immigrant actually votes for the Right parities. That happened in US as well as in Germany

Depends on who is going to give freebies. These politicians are making people poor and giving freebies to win elections ...

If you think about it, it take years to naturalisation and also has to qualify for that. As an example in Germany you will not be qualified for naturalisation if you’re on social benefits.

The immigrants that become naturalised are 99% of the cases hard working people that build their lives from scratch and want the prosperity for their families. That way they don’t need any freebies and just wants a functioning and growing economy where their children would have a better future

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#65

Post by SaturnIC »

ksec wrote: post #12
redeeman wrote: post #2

"far right" (gets 44% of votes.. lets not talk about that)

This isn't really news. Media has been calling anyone which does not align with their views as far right for more than a decade.

[flagged]

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#66

Post by dinfinity »

cyberpunk wrote: post #57
sajithdilshan wrote: post #51

There was a lot of hope when the current German government was elected. The current chancellor did his campaign saying the leftist-green ideological politics would be over and he is going to drastically reduce the government spending and cut bureaucracy and lift up the economy. People believed him and majority voted for a center right government. However, as soon as he came to power, he broke the promise of fiscal di…

The OECD calculates Germany's 2025 tax wedge at 49.3%. That's the second highest behind belgium. So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc), and on-top of it thanks to the Merz masterstroke we're getting an additional 800bn debt between now-2030. Meanwhile, everything seems to be getting worse. We need significant reductions in spending, and I don't think anyone has any clue how to achiev…

> So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc)

Dreadful framing. You work for the benefit of the entirety of Germany including yourself half the time.

Instead of viewing it as money you've lost, do this: look at the fractions of what the German (federal, municipal, etc) government spends its budget on, then apply these to what you pay yearly in taxes. Then compare that to the other things you spend money on privately and what value you directly or indirectly get out of what you 'worked for for the state'.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#67

Post by sajithdilshan »

dinfinity wrote: post #66
cyberpunk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OECD calculates Germany's 2025 tax wedge at 49.3%. That's the second highest behind belgium. So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc), and on-top of it thanks to the Merz masterstroke we're getting an additional 800bn debt between now-2030. Meanwhile, everything seems to be getting worse. We need significant reductions in spending, and I don't think anyone has any clue how to achiev…

> So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc) Dreadful framing. You work for the benefit of the entirety of Germany including yourself half the time . Instead of viewing it as money you've lost, do this: look at the fractions of what the German (federal, municipal, etc) government spends its budget on, then apply these to what you pay yearly in taxes. Then compare that to the other things…

That would have worked if the things were getting better and living standards are being elevated.

Right now it’s more like your tax is being used in wasteful spending, funding wars and corruption that doesn’t improve the quality of life at all

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#68

Post by rdm_blackhole »

dinfinity wrote: post #66
cyberpunk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OECD calculates Germany's 2025 tax wedge at 49.3%. That's the second highest behind belgium. So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc), and on-top of it thanks to the Merz masterstroke we're getting an additional 800bn debt between now-2030. Meanwhile, everything seems to be getting worse. We need significant reductions in spending, and I don't think anyone has any clue how to achiev…

> So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc) Dreadful framing. You work for the benefit of the entirety of Germany including yourself half the time . Instead of viewing it as money you've lost, do this: look at the fractions of what the German (federal, municipal, etc) government spends its budget on, then apply these to what you pay yearly in taxes. Then compare that to the other things…

Your framing is no better: Don't look at how much you are paying in taxes because somehow in the end you are getting more out of it.

Of course you should look at what you are getting out of it and scrutinize every euro spent by the state. This is the basis of the social contract between a country and its citizens.

Citizens pay money in the form of taxes and expect to receive decent services in return. If the state is no longer fulfilling its share of the agreement then what?

People are happy to pay high taxes if they see improvements in their lives but they do not: - Germany has had massive infrastructure backlog for the last 15 years that will not be resolved tomorrow - The German state is increasingly seen as a wasteful thing that still runs of paper and fax machines when we are well within the digital age - Germany's train system is so dysfunctional that only 60% of its trains are on time - Germany's healthcare system is one the most expensive in the world and people are paying more and more for a lesser service

This is the same problem that France is facing today.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#69

Post by NikolaNovak »

antisthenes wrote: post #32
NikolaNovak wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a trick question though, and it cunningly pre-supposes / takes-for-granted there IS an "immigration problem", and implicitly that "the immigration problem is the root cause of other problems" (as opposed to, "there are real problems, and some people would like you to think they're because of immigration").

This kind of non-answer is exactly what leads to far-right parties getting more followers. Tax paying citizens who want their concerns addressed absolutely LOVE hearing that "Ackchyually, your problem doesn't exist and is all in your head". P.S. - I have no skin in the game regarding EU immigration policies, just making an honest observation about engaging with people who might have opposing views.

That's fair, but context is everything :)

I approached it as a discussion on Hacker News, and I think my implicit assumption (which can be challenged!) is that taking a structured, logical approach benefits us all. When I saw what I perceive as a logical fallacy or assumption that takes us on an unproductive path, intended or not, I called it out.

In other venues, different approach may be more applicable.

To your other point, in case it wasn't clear:

* I absolutely do not think there's no problem, or that it's in anybody's head. I think there are a LOT of problems!

* At the same time, I strongly think that not-nice, dishonest people are working very very hard, very very consistently, to create an image that somehow immigrants are the root causes of these problems.

This has happened myriad times in history, and may sadly be repeating itself. The only answer I ever have for this is, to your point, a non-answer: it's education and information. I think most people propagating immigration as root of all evil are fairly aware that mathematically, socially, statistically, philosophically, logically, this is not supported. It's just intentional fallacy after intentional fallacy, starting with the "Lump of Labor Fallacy". It's clear on its face that if I had 100 people with 100 jobs yesterday, bringing 10 more people won't just magically take jobs without also creating/generating jobs! So I'm happy to discuss immigration problems at any length - but again, I think it's an intentional distraction. To your point, there ARE real problems, of housing and equality and prices and job market, and bad people are trying to make us think they're caused by immigrants, whether for personal profit or because they themselves are part of the actual root cause :-/

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#70

Post by customguy »

majorchord wrote: post #62
cute_boi wrote: post #35

I don't understand why we even give the right an opportunity to speak on immigration. Is it really that hard to allow only legal immigration and stop giving incentives to illegal immigrants? I understand that there may be around 5% of people who are genuinely trying to escape dictatorships, but if 95% are just gaming the system, it's going to look very bad.

> I don't understand why we even give the right an opportunity to speak on immigration "People I disagree with should not have a right to speak" I don't know about you, but to me this sounds exactly like the type of fascist rhetoric everyone warns about.

Giving them an opportunity to speak on immigration by handling it so badly.

If I don't put out a fire, you can come along and suggest pouring kerosene on it, and if I handle shit badly enough, people might say hey, why not. But if I put the fire out while you're still a toddler, what can you do? Suggest to start a fire and pour kerosene on it?

> to me this sounds exactly like the type of fascist rhetoric everyone warns about

Well going by what you just did, I would have to guess you would say this about just about anything except fascist rhetoric. To try to twist something to harmless and banally true as the above into some sinister fascist ideology, while shrugging off people calling the Holocaust a "Fliegenschiss", who plan to abolish education about that time, does have a Gschmäckle.

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