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FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

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Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#41

Post by jlgreco »

pyre wrote: post #30
cstejerean wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will a jury of your peers convict you for one of these things that supposedly everyone is violating?

Many judges will not allow mention of jury nullification[1] in court. The jury is instructed at as long as you broke the law, they must find you in violation. There's also the fact that you went through a trial that counts against you, even if it shouldn't count against you. Even being accused of a crime is a crime in and of itself in the court of public opinion. Being accused of paedophilia is an extreme example of…

> There's also the fact that you went through a trial that counts against you

Quite right. Even more concerning: merely being arrested, even if all charges are dropped a few hours later, can count against you.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#42

Post by anigbrowl »

pyre wrote: post #12
gimbuser wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You Sir are very sensible, good someone actually thinks twice before going down with hysteria about "yet another big brother"

You are both missing the plethora of articles about how every breaks at least 3 federal laws a day (unknowingly). We are rapidly approaching a state where everyone is a criminal, and all it takes it putting your life under a microscope to cart you off to jail. If the FBI are creating a file on everyone that goes to a protest, then fewer people will be willing to go to protests to avoid having their life under the mic…

the plethora of articles about how every breaks at least 3 federal laws a day

...which are mostly not founded in fact, but designed to tell you what you want to hear in order to sell advertising.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#43

Post by jlgreco »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #39
jeffdavis wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Creating a file" This is not a problem. "You are both missing the plethora of articles about how every breaks at least 3 federal laws a day (unknowingly)." Citation needed. However, it's a general problem anyway. I agree that laws should be simpler, fewer in number, and more evenly enforced. But I don't see what this has to do with the article in question, which doesn't offer much.

Citation needed. Here's a few, ranging from the humorous to the heinous. http://www.cracked.com/article_19450_6-laws-youve-broken-wit... http://mises.org/daily/5759/Decriminalize-the-Average-Man http://www.economist.com/node/16636027 http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/... The only question is, which laws "count?" And who decides?

The idea is less "which laws count?" and more "which man counts?". Most people will never be picked up for breaking the laws that they break, the few who are will be selected not for which laws they accidentally broke that day, but for who they are.

The purpose of everyone being a criminal is not to allow the arrest of everyone, but rather anyone.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#44

Post by CamperBob2 »

jlgreco wrote: post #43
CamperBob2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed. Here's a few, ranging from the humorous to the heinous. http://www.cracked.com/article_19450_6-laws-youve-broken-wit... http://mises.org/daily/5759/Decriminalize-the-Average-Man http://www.economist.com/node/16636027 http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/... The only question is, which laws "count?" And who decides?

The idea is less "which laws count?" and more "which man counts?" . Most people will never be picked up for breaking the laws that they break, the few who are will be selected not for which laws they accidentally broke that day, but for who they are. The purpose of every one being a criminal is not to allow the arrest of every one, but rather any one.

Exactly. That's what I meant by "And who decides?"

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#45

Post by pyre »

anigbrowl wrote: post #42
pyre wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are both missing the plethora of articles about how every breaks at least 3 federal laws a day (unknowingly). We are rapidly approaching a state where everyone is a criminal, and all it takes it putting your life under a microscope to cart you off to jail. If the FBI are creating a file on everyone that goes to a protest, then fewer people will be willing to go to protests to avoid having their life under the mic…

the plethora of articles about how every breaks at least 3 federal laws a day ...which are mostly not founded in fact, but designed to tell you what you want to hear in order to sell advertising.

In Canada, there is a product called Kinder Surprise. It's illegal in the United States, but it's just a hollow chocolate egg with a toy inside. The FDA says you can't put a toy inside of food. If you buy one at a convenience store in Canada, and come back across the border with it? Federal offence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_Surprise#Prohibition_on_...

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#46

Post by btilly »

anigbrowl wrote: post #37
subsystem wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who decides what's illegitimate? Is it anything the police says like sitting down at the wrong place, wearing a mask not to be identified or just being part of something considered illegitimate? It's uncommon even in totalitarian countries that the government won't have some justification for its behavior. If people in Quebec would have respected bill 78, maybe there wouldn't have been a change in government there.

The courts, that's why we have them. You might also like to recall that at least some of the occupy movements involved violent and wholly unecessary destruction of private property, eg Occupy Oakland. Sure, that was only a few fringe anarchists who had attached themselves to the ideologically pure movement, but that's little different from the 'few bad apples' excuse that is sometimes advanced to forestall criticism…

You are absolutely right about it being the responsibility of the courts. But when government, police and courts are all lined up against the people, then that which was formerly unthinkable - such as armed revolt - should become seriously considered options. When, and only when.

In the case of Occupy Oakland, it is worth noting that the Oakland police were the first to escalate to violence. This is one of the central paradoxes of policing. It is the job of the police to see that the peace is kept. Surprisingly often, preemptive force is an ineffective means to that end.

Incidentally the phrase "a few bad apples" originally meant the opposite of what it means now. Originally it was a recognition that a single bad apple would spoil the whole barrel, so if you found a few bad apples your default assumption was that the whole barrel was at risk. It, therefore, was an argument that if you find some bad apples, there is cause for increased scrutiny.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#47

Post by Karunamon »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's job -- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that might present some kind of threat to civil order. They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens. As a libertarian I enjoy a good ran…

Seriously, listen to this man. The FBI is actually doing their Goddamned job and you all freak out over it.

Call me when they're actually violating civil liberties or actually doing something they shouldn't be. This is a non story.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#48

Post by btilly »

subsystem wrote: post #36
btilly wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a libertarian. I am a liberal. I broadly support the goals of the Occupy movement. I also support the principles of this action by the FBI (though almost certainly not all of the details). Why? Among other things, it is the job of the FBI to monitor situations that could turn into problems. The Occupy movement, as legitimate as it is, has the potential to attract easily radicalized people. These people could…

Who decides what's illegitimate? Is it anything the police says like sitting down at the wrong place, wearing a mask not to be identified or just being part of something considered illegitimate? It's uncommon even in totalitarian countries that the government won't have some justification for its behavior. If people in Quebec would have respected bill 78, maybe there wouldn't have been a change in government there.

In the end, legitimacy is decided by the country as a whole. In a well-working country, laws, courts, and police are a reasonable proxy for that.

Incidentally I had not read about bill 78. The anti-protest portions of the bill I am strongly against. But the tuition hikes that were being protested, well, I was paying more tuition 20 years ago in British Columbia, Canada than Quebec students would have paid. I have little sympathy with the student protests about tuition. Furthermore I am personally of the political belief that the culture of widespread entitlement in Quebec is among the reasons that it is much worse off economically than the rest of the country.

Note, this is coming from someone who, while I was in Canada, was politically fairly far to the left. And Canada is fairly far to the left of the United States. This is not the time or place to debate it, but in the case of Quebec my opinions are shaped in part by the separatist movement there. I grew up with friends whose families left Quebec due to Bill 101, which is likely the most racist law passed anywhere in North America in my lifetime. Before objecting, go read it, and educate yourself on why the Bank of Montreal is now headquartered in Toronto, and what economic impacts that has had on Montreal.

It didn't help that the value of my Canadian sourced scholarship dropped sharply due to the the widespread belief in Quebec during the early 90s that they had the right to take not only their marbles, but all of the marbles that they had been given while abandoning all of the debts that they had run up, on a straight majority vote. (One of those marbles being a lot of land with good hydroelectric power, built on land given under the condition that they take good care of the natives, with natives who voted 99.7% that if Quebec left Canada, they would leave Quebec.) Yes, I am sure that you see things differently and think that Quebec was entitled to do that. But explain to me why the natives were not entitled to leave Quebec, and find an argument that cannot be turned around and be seen by a third party as an argument that Quebec not be allowed to leave Canada.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#49

Post by gojomo »

btilly wrote: post #46
anigbrowl wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The courts, that's why we have them. You might also like to recall that at least some of the occupy movements involved violent and wholly unecessary destruction of private property, eg Occupy Oakland. Sure, that was only a few fringe anarchists who had attached themselves to the ideologically pure movement, but that's little different from the 'few bad apples' excuse that is sometimes advanced to forestall criticism…

You are absolutely right about it being the responsibility of the courts. But when government, police and courts are all lined up against the people, then that which was formerly unthinkable - such as armed revolt - should become seriously considered options. When, and only when. In the case of Occupy Oakland, it is worth noting that the Oakland police were the first to escalate to violence. This is one of the centra…

...the Oakland police were the first to escalate to violence...

What was the first act of violence by the Oakland police against Occupy Oakland assemblies?

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#50

Post by anigbrowl »

pyre wrote: post #45
anigbrowl wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the plethora of articles about how every breaks at least 3 federal laws a day ...which are mostly not founded in fact, but designed to tell you what you want to hear in order to sell advertising.

In Canada, there is a product called Kinder Surprise. It's illegal in the United States, but it's just a hollow chocolate egg with a toy inside. The FDA says you can't put a toy inside of food. If you buy one at a convenience store in Canada, and come back across the border with it? Federal offence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_Surprise#Prohibition_on_...

That doesn't support your argument very well. We've had this conversation before, and in it I suggested you stop focusing on anecdata and isolated examples and employ some statistical rigor instead.
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