FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring • Hacker News Board

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#11

Post by pyre » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 5:10 PM UTC

jivatmanx wrote: post #9

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's job -- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that might present some kind of threat to civil order. They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens. As a libertarian I enjoy a good ran…

Lately, their primary job seems to be creating fake terrorist plots and finding 16-year old illiterate Somali immigrants to execute them, and than applauding themselves. Never once have I heard of a similar sting operation being done for insider trading or other kind of financial crime.

Terrorist plots are what get the budget money from Congress...

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#12

Post by pyre » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 5:14 PM UTC

gimbuser wrote: post #8

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's job -- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that might present some kind of threat to civil order. They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens. As a libertarian I enjoy a good ran…

You Sir are very sensible, good someone actually thinks twice before going down with hysteria about "yet another big brother"

You are both missing the plethora of articles about how every breaks at least 3 federal laws a day (unknowingly). We are rapidly approaching a state where everyone is a criminal, and all it takes it putting your life under a microscope to cart you off to jail.

If the FBI are creating a file on everyone that goes to a protest, then fewer people will be willing to go to protests to avoid having their life under the microscope. This has a chilling effect on a free speech.

[Note: This is the result of a system in which very few people are looking at the bigger picture, rather than a system of some 'elite evil masterminds.' Also, no one in power is incentivized to fix it.]

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#13

Post by pyre » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 5:17 PM UTC

nakedrobot2 wrote: post #2

How much power do these scary bureaucratic agencies FBI, CIA, NSA actually yield in comparison to our elected politicians, anyway? Do they have any real accountability?

They answer to the President, and partially to Congress (as they hold the purse-strings). How much they answer to the President is anyone's guess.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#14

Post by dalke » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 5:28 PM UTC

derekerdmann wrote: post #4

Of course they did. Let's ignore for a moment that protest groups (like PETA) are usually considered some of the highest risks for terrorism; it would be irresponsible of the bureau to take the protest at face value and assume they have completely peaceful intentions.

"irresponsible ... [to] assume they have completely peaceful intentions"

Who is the "they" here? Protest groups in general? Or just PETA? You seem to be painting all protest groups with a single color.

There are oodles of protests groups in the US, ranging from anti-red-light-camera groups, anti-computerized-voting-machines and anti-waste-in-local-government to anti-abortion and anti-pot-prohibition to boycott-Israel, anti-nuke, and anti-anyone-who-isn't-white. Some of these have national scope.

Are all of them in the highest risk for terrorism? Assuming there were enough resources, would it be irresponsible for the police if there were a few protest groups which they did not monitor and/or infiltrate?

If the police hear of a group planning to protest the high sugar tariff, with organized demonstrations in DC, Hawaii, and Florida, should they monitor the group on the assumption that it's "one of the highest risks for terrorism"?

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#15

Post by mtgx » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 5:31 PM UTC

nakedrobot2 wrote: post #2

How much power do these scary bureaucratic agencies FBI, CIA, NSA actually yield in comparison to our elected politicians, anyway? Do they have any real accountability?

No, not really. If they are in danger of having a lawsuit against them, they can usually just brush it off with the "state secrets" privilege, and if they are actually found guilty of doing illegal things, well...nothing happens to them. The worst that happens is that they need to change their methods, if that.

Now, if they get themselves in a sexual scandal, they are expected to present their resignation immediately. Because obviously that matters much more than doing something unconstitutional.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#16

Post by themgt » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 5:40 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's job -- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that might present some kind of threat to civil order. They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens. As a libertarian I enjoy a good ran…

The group that poses the biggest threat to civil order in the US are the elites who are looting the country as society collapses around them.

And how exactly do you call yourself a "libertarian" and then support a national intelligence agency monitoring the non-violent political activities of private citizens? If the FBI was monitoring libertarian party members and events that would be kosher with you too, or is it just hippies that deserve the police state treatment?

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#17

Post by mseebach » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 5:53 PM UTC

themgt wrote: post #16

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's job -- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that might present some kind of threat to civil order. They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens. As a libertarian I enjoy a good ran…

The group that poses the biggest threat to civil order in the US are the elites who are looting the country as society collapses around them. And how exactly do you call yourself a "libertarian" and then support a national intelligence agency monitoring the non-violent political activities of private citizens? If the FBI was monitoring libertarian party members and events that would be kosher with you too, or is it j…

You can be your ass that the FBI was monitoring the tea party movement. Especially the bits of it that kept reminding everyone that the second amendment was meant to keep the government afraid of the citizens.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#18

Post by webmeist » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:18 PM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #17

themgt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The group that poses the biggest threat to civil order in the US are the elites who are looting the country as society collapses around them. And how exactly do you call yourself a "libertarian" and then support a national intelligence agency monitoring the non-violent political activities of private citizens? If the FBI was monitoring libertarian party members and events that would be kosher with you too, or is it j…

You can be your ass that the FBI was monitoring the tea party movement. Especially the bits of it that kept reminding everyone that the second amendment was meant to keep the government afraid of the citizens.

I think the Tea Party movement was an invented astroturfed hoax to reel in disgruntled GOPers. And the Ron Paul "No Tax" libertarian movement as well.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#19

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:18 PM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #17

themgt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The group that poses the biggest threat to civil order in the US are the elites who are looting the country as society collapses around them. And how exactly do you call yourself a "libertarian" and then support a national intelligence agency monitoring the non-violent political activities of private citizens? If the FBI was monitoring libertarian party members and events that would be kosher with you too, or is it j…

You can be your ass that the FBI was monitoring the tea party movement. Especially the bits of it that kept reminding everyone that the second amendment was meant to keep the government afraid of the citizens.

[deleted]

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#20

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:54 PM UTC

themgt wrote: post #16

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's job -- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that might present some kind of threat to civil order. They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens. As a libertarian I enjoy a good ran…

The group that poses the biggest threat to civil order in the US are the elites who are looting the country as society collapses around them. And how exactly do you call yourself a "libertarian" and then support a national intelligence agency monitoring the non-violent political activities of private citizens? If the FBI was monitoring libertarian party members and events that would be kosher with you too, or is it j…

Everyone is non-violent until they're not and there is a rational trade-off between civil liberty and security (the risk/reward balance ranges from the U.S. to Singapore to Stalin's Russia). There is a proper way to do this - peeking into suspects' lives for suspicious activity, and if nothing is found, to hide away the file. While most protesters in Benghazi weren't bad it created a predictably attractive environment for violence-biased individuals.

As a personal aside and a New Yorker, I've been concerned by the sometimes violent proclamations of OWS protesters (as well as thoroughly pleased by the coherence of a diminishing minority's arguments). I would be dismayed to the point of taking action if NYPD CT weren't monitoring the group (once an individual leaves the group the civil liberties side weighs in higher as a temporary phenomenon indicating an elevated risk profile has passed).