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FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

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Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#21

Post by btilly »

themgt wrote: post #16
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's job -- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that might present some kind of threat to civil order. They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens. As a libertarian I enjoy a good ran…

The group that poses the biggest threat to civil order in the US are the elites who are looting the country as society collapses around them. And how exactly do you call yourself a "libertarian" and then support a national intelligence agency monitoring the non-violent political activities of private citizens? If the FBI was monitoring libertarian party members and events that would be kosher with you too, or is it j…

I am not a libertarian. I am a liberal. I broadly support the goals of the Occupy movement. I also support the principles of this action by the FBI (though almost certainly not all of the details).

Why?

Among other things, it is the job of the FBI to monitor situations that could turn into problems. The Occupy movement, as legitimate as it is, has the potential to attract easily radicalized people. These people could easily coalesce into a radical fringe whose methods would be counter to both the desires of both the majority of Occupy and the legitimate goals of law enforcement. (See the Weathermen for an example of such a group that arose out of broad protests during the 60s.)

If law enforcement can stay abreast of the Occupy movement, and hopefully form connections between their officers and various well connected people, they have the opportunity to better monitor and head off this radical fringe. That is a legitimate goal for law enforcement, and benefits the Occupy movement as well.

The details where I would disagree with this action are any and all where law enforcement seeks to block the rights of reasonable people to political protest. Given what law enforcement is like, I am certain that this has happened to some extent. However my impression is that on the whole the focus really has been to be prepared for illegitimate action, and not to block legitimate protest. Therefore my default position is cautious support of this law enforcement action, even though I recognize the possibility of abuse.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#22

Post by k0nsl »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's job -- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that might present some kind of threat to civil order. They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens. As a libertarian I enjoy a good ran…

It's also funny to see the same Americans rake down on the RSHA of the Third Reich. America is ten times worse than Germany ever was. Actually, in comparison, the German Reich under Hitler appears to be more like a paradise. It's time for Americans to admit that they're doing precisely everything they ever accused the Germans of doing. But the Germans are always wrong and you are always right. Its nice, its a system.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#23

Post by tokenadult »

k0nsl wrote: post #22
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's job -- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that might present some kind of threat to civil order. They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens. As a libertarian I enjoy a good ran…

It's also funny to see the same Americans rake down on the RSHA of the Third Reich. America is ten times worse than Germany ever was. Actually, in comparison, the German Reich under Hitler appears to be more like a paradise. It's time for Americans to admit that they're doing precisely everything they ever accused the Germans of doing. But the Germans are always wrong and you are always right. Its nice, its a system.

Actually, in comparison, the German Reich under Hitler appears to be more like a paradise.

You have violated the advice in the Hacker News welcome message

http://ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

"Essentially there are two rules here: don't post or upvote crap links, and don't be rude or dumb in comment threads."

and I have downvoted accordingly.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#24

Post by jeffdavis »

themgt wrote: post #16
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's job -- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that might present some kind of threat to civil order. They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens. As a libertarian I enjoy a good ran…

The group that poses the biggest threat to civil order in the US are the elites who are looting the country as society collapses around them. And how exactly do you call yourself a "libertarian" and then support a national intelligence agency monitoring the non-violent political activities of private citizens? If the FBI was monitoring libertarian party members and events that would be kosher with you too, or is it j…

"support a national intelligence agency monitoring the non-violent"

What's wrong with "monitoring"? It sounds bad, but from the article, it seems like they are just keeping their eyes on a potential problem. Given that OWS was a public protest movement, monitoring it is hardly an unreasonable search.

So, does this article offer new evidence that some unreasonable searches, seizures, or harassment took place? If not, then I don't see what it has to offer.

And no, I don't care whether they "monitor" the ELF, or the Tea Party, or the libertarian party rallies, or Ron Paul, or Richard Stallman; except to the extent it wastes the FBI's time (which we all pay for).

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#25

Post by jeffdavis »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #20
themgt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The group that poses the biggest threat to civil order in the US are the elites who are looting the country as society collapses around them. And how exactly do you call yourself a "libertarian" and then support a national intelligence agency monitoring the non-violent political activities of private citizens? If the FBI was monitoring libertarian party members and events that would be kosher with you too, or is it j…

Everyone is non-violent until they're not and there is a rational trade-off between civil liberty and security (the risk/reward balance ranges from the U.S. to Singapore to Stalin's Russia). There is a proper way to do this - peeking into suspects' lives for suspicious activity, and if nothing is found, to hide away the file. While most protesters in Benghazi weren't bad it created a predictably attractive environmen…

"trade-off between civil liberty and security"

What specific civil liberties were being violated, that were not known before these documents were revealed by the FOIA request? I don't even really see what the trade-off is here.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#26

Post by rayiner »

sneak wrote: post #10
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's job -- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that might present some kind of threat to civil order. They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens. As a libertarian I enjoy a good ran…

Dissent: just one misinterpreted statement away from jailtime. ...because the FBI and DoJ have such a long and varied history of making sure that the free and legal exercise of one's first amendment rights are upheld.... riiiight. This is the same FBI that tapped the phones of MLK Jr. Fuck them. To DanielBMarkham: what fucking world do you live in where this is your reasonably-considered view?! Please go read some hi…

Did the FBI and DOJ jail MLK?

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#27

Post by cstejerean »

pyre wrote: post #12
gimbuser wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You Sir are very sensible, good someone actually thinks twice before going down with hysteria about "yet another big brother"

You are both missing the plethora of articles about how every breaks at least 3 federal laws a day (unknowingly). We are rapidly approaching a state where everyone is a criminal, and all it takes it putting your life under a microscope to cart you off to jail. If the FBI are creating a file on everyone that goes to a protest, then fewer people will be willing to go to protests to avoid having their life under the mic…

Will a jury of your peers convict you for one of these things that supposedly everyone is violating?

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#28

Post by CleanStar »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's job -- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that might present some kind of threat to civil order. They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens. As a libertarian I enjoy a good ran…

Congratulations, you have the Orwellian language down cold. Things done in other countries are a threat to "national security", if I as a citizen, taxpayer and voter want to go to a park and protest the TARP taxpayer bank bailouts, I'm a potential "threat to civil order".

Also thanks for telling us all the FBI does is sit by and meekly "monitor" groups that "might present some kind of threat to civil order". After Nixon had a bunch of burglars break into the Democratic parties headquarters at the Watergate hotel as part of a much larger spying operation, his FBI appointee, L. Patrick Gray participated in the coverup by destroying documents given to him by John Dean and Ehrlichman - as well as working to dampen the entire Watergate investigation within the FBI. You can't blame a subordinate - the head of the FBI took an active role in secretly sabotaging efforts of the Democratic party.

We don't even have to go into civil rights and peace groups which were part of the Democratic party milieu. The FBI took an active role in this. Hoover sent a memo in 1967 "The purpose of this new counterintelligence endeavor is to expose, distrupt, or otherwise neutralize the activities of black nationalist hate-type organizations". What were the "targets" listen in the memo? Martin Luther King's Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and SNCC, which organized college student protests against segregation.

I am acquainted with a programmer who worked at Columbia University until he retired recently. In the 1960s he went to Bard College and became involved in the opposition to the war in Vietnam. He also worked as a programmer, and I believe a database administrator at that time for various corporations. The FBI secretly sent letters "misaddressed" to his bosses, trying to defame him and get him fired. This was found out in a lawsuit later.

The court, documentary etc. evidence of FBI abuse is enormous. In fact, the surest way of getting flagged by the FBI - is to attack the FBI. This post is certainly being flagged by the FBI, what I'm typing right now. People criticizing the FBI was one of the top things flagged by the FBI from the 1950s to the 1970s, and why should anything have changed?

Of course the above posted who describes himself as a "libertarian" and people like him seem fine with this, and call this active interference by a political police as "monitoring".

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#29

Post by jeffdavis »

pyre wrote: post #12
gimbuser wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You Sir are very sensible, good someone actually thinks twice before going down with hysteria about "yet another big brother"

You are both missing the plethora of articles about how every breaks at least 3 federal laws a day (unknowingly). We are rapidly approaching a state where everyone is a criminal, and all it takes it putting your life under a microscope to cart you off to jail. If the FBI are creating a file on everyone that goes to a protest, then fewer people will be willing to go to protests to avoid having their life under the mic…

"Creating a file"

This is not a problem.

"You are both missing the plethora of articles about how every breaks at least 3 federal laws a day (unknowingly)."

Citation needed.

However, it's a general problem anyway. I agree that laws should be simpler, fewer in number, and more evenly enforced. But I don't see what this has to do with the article in question, which doesn't offer much.

Re: FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring

#30

Post by pyre »

cstejerean wrote: post #27
pyre wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are both missing the plethora of articles about how every breaks at least 3 federal laws a day (unknowingly). We are rapidly approaching a state where everyone is a criminal, and all it takes it putting your life under a microscope to cart you off to jail. If the FBI are creating a file on everyone that goes to a protest, then fewer people will be willing to go to protests to avoid having their life under the mic…

Will a jury of your peers convict you for one of these things that supposedly everyone is violating?

Many judges will not allow mention of jury nullification[1] in court. The jury is instructed at as long as you broke the law, they must find you in violation.

There's also the fact that you went through a trial that counts against you, even if it shouldn't count against you. Even being accused of a crime is a crime in and of itself in the court of public opinion. Being accused of paedophilia is an extreme example of this (i.e. doesn't matter if you are or not, the claim makes you 'tainted' and people will always wonder).

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

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