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Whistleblower warns Postal Service mail ballot system has catastrophic problems

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Re: Whistleblower warns Postal Service mail ballot system has catastrophic problems

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes they do. Okay, we're at that level of argument, I see. Well, you forgot to bring your evidence. A drivers license in New York costs between $64.25 and $107.5 >>as well a trip to the DMV or equivalent > Not always. Please explain how a an ID issued without an in-person visit is supposed to securely represent a person's citizenship status? That is the point, after all, right? > False. Many (all?) states provide f…

>Okay, we're at that level of argument, I see. Well, you forgot to bring your evidence. So did you. >A drivers license in New York costs between $64.25 and $107.5 This is about voter IDs (which are free), not drivers licenses. Now you're moving goalposts. >Please explain how a an ID issued without an in-person visit is supposed to securely represent a person's citizenship status? That is the point, after all, right?…

> So did you.

Did you not see the links to factual evidence that I included?

> This is about voter IDs (which are free), not drivers licenses. Now you're moving goalposts.

Most people get their in the form of a driver's license, not as a pure voter ID. If a tiny minority of people get the free option, then how is it relevant?

> Many states have mobile DMV offices that are stationed within walking distance during the year, special programs where DMV employees go to the homes of those in need to verify documentation, etc.

This makes no sense. "Walking distance" to what? I have never heard of or seen such a program. If they exist, they are not terribly effective, given that 10% of the population still lack a valid ID.

> It's absolutely true. Yes, if you lose documentation such as birth certificates, you may be required to acquire them. Same as any first world country.

That's not how it works in Europe (at least in Netherlands and Czech Republic, where I have experience). In that case, the government already has your birth cert, so they don't force you to acquire it and then give it back to a different part of the government. Only the US sets up these additional obstacles. Which, again, is why 10% of Americans don't have a valid ID, a fact that you refuse to address.

>>European countries in the "first world" have automatic, mandatory IDs, which the US does not. > The US has this via the states, not federally.

Can you please name a single US state that automatically issues ID to all voters? I can't.

>>Republicans always accuse liberals of "virtue signalling" when liberals try to do anything supporting justice. > You're not supporting justice, you're regurgitating false propaganda.

What about "making sure that eligible voters and vote" is not about justice?

> Like Karens virtue signaling in the town square about being good Christians.

Not an answer to my question.

> You're not "pursuing justice" you're regurgitating BlueSky brainrot to feel morally superior.

You already said that, but you are just making baseless accusations. You don't know my mind. Let me ask you this: do you categorically refuse the possibility that anyone pursues justice for its own sake? Were MLK Jr, Ghandi, the Sufragettes, the abolitoinists all just "virtue signalling", or do you think that some people actually care about making the world a better place?

It's really hard to take your argument seriously when doubt the good faith of arguments made with support facts that help people and support democracy. Clearly no one in the MAGA camp could be accused of "virtue signalling" because they have no virtues. On the contrary, MAGA members publicly signal their devotion to groupthink by willfully blocking out unpleasant facts and pledging fealty to a prodigious liar.

> Free voter ID is provided by every Republican state. The link you posted literally states that Democrats blocked the bill LOL!

You keep on ignoring important words in my comment. In this case, you specifically edited out "automatic" and "mandatory." The absence of those words is why Democrats blocked the bill.

> That is exactly what every state has. Every Republican state has this. Find a state that does not have this.

Literally no state has this. I live in a red state and I have to go in and request a voter ID, using appropriate evidence. They are not issued automatically. I challenge you to find any evidence supporting the idea that any state automatically issues ID.

> Stop moving the goalposts. Your claims about voter ID are fake propaganda. Voter IDs are free in every state, you cannot deny this fact.

Calling it propganda doesn't make it untrue. You have failed to address the many examples of disenfranchisement at the hands of the GOP.

My conclusion, based on the evidence presented in this thread: Either you are a terrible debater who consistently disregards evidence and arguments presented by the opponent, or you are debating in bad faith and intentionally ignoring evidence that disagrees with your preconceived conclusion. Which is it?

Re: Whistleblower warns Postal Service mail ballot system has catastrophic problems

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But suppose there are states that don't cooperate with that?

The postal service is run by the federal government.

We could probably get something rather similar to voting by mail without actually using the US postal service.

Re: Whistleblower warns Postal Service mail ballot system has catastrophic problems

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, fix those problems too. What you are showing is that problems exist. Clearly, work on election integrity is needed. Note that in New Jersey, bipartisan work is being done.

> Sure, fix those problems too. They do exist. What's interesting is that those are problems created by the same people who are currently trying to disenfranchise people through the current push to takeover state elections through the postal service. So color me skeptical of their alleged "good intentions."

Explain how Republicans caused the ineligible votes in New Jersey, please.

Re: Whistleblower warns Postal Service mail ballot system has catastrophic problems

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am asserting that errors happened. Invalid votes were cast, thousands more potentially could be cast. Just in one state. What about the rest? Clearly, there is potential for more problem areas. The American public overwhelmingly wants voter ID, as other countries have, but this is a topic not entertained by one side of the political aisle. Or rather, by the party leaders—- the majority of their voters want voter ID…

> I am asserting that errors happened. Errors are not fraud. The current push by the Trump administration is (allegedly) about fraud. > The American public overwhelmingly wants voter ID, as other countries have, but this is a topic not entertained by one side of the political aisle. It's entertained if you can do it fairly. "Fairly" means everyone gets an ID automatically. Why do Republicans oppose given legal voters…

I don’t oppose that. What makes you think all Republicans would?

I want every single voter to have access to their vote, and I want strict proof that every vote cast was the knowledgeable will of that voter ( and only that voter. I’m thinking of ballot dumps at collection boxes here. )

The distinction between fraud and error doesn’t matter to me. The system has problems, ineligible voters have been casting votes. Nobody should oppose efforts to fix it.

Re: Whistleblower warns Postal Service mail ballot system has catastrophic problems

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, fix those problems too. They do exist. What's interesting is that those are problems created by the same people who are currently trying to disenfranchise people through the current push to takeover state elections through the postal service. So color me skeptical of their alleged "good intentions."

Explain how Republicans caused the ineligible votes in New Jersey, please.

> Explain how Republicans caused the ineligible votes in New Jersey, please.

I never asserted that they did. Are you arguing with me or with a straw man?

Re: Whistleblower warns Postal Service mail ballot system has catastrophic problems

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Okay, we're at that level of argument, I see. Well, you forgot to bring your evidence. So did you. >A drivers license in New York costs between $64.25 and $107.5 This is about voter IDs (which are free), not drivers licenses. Now you're moving goalposts. >Please explain how a an ID issued without an in-person visit is supposed to securely represent a person's citizenship status? That is the point, after all, right?…

> So did you. Did you not see the links to factual evidence that I included? > This is about voter IDs (which are free), not drivers licenses. Now you're moving goalposts. Most people get their in the form of a driver's license, not as a pure voter ID. If a tiny minority of people get the free option, then how is it relevant? > Many states have mobile DMV offices that are stationed within walking distance during the…

>Did you not see the links to factual evidence that I included?

You did not link to any factual evidence that made any claim contrary to the facts: Every state has free voter IDs. This is a fact.

>Most people get their in the form of a driver's license, not as a pure voter ID. If a tiny minority of people get the free option, then how is it relevant?

So not only do you now admit that free options exist, you're trying to claim they're irrelevant. Millions of people get free voter IDs, they're not irrelevant. This is a fact you just admitted to, which was my original claim. I accept your defeat.

>This makes no sense. "Walking distance" to what? I have never heard of or seen such a program. If they exist, they are not terribly effective, given that 10% of the population still lack a valid ID.

"I haven't heard about it so it doesn't exist."

>That's not how it works in Europe (at least in Netherlands and Czech Republic, where I have experience). In that case, the government already has your birth cert, so they don't force you to acquire it and then give it back to a different part of the government.

That's exactly how it works in Europe, Czech Republic. If you don't have a copy, you request a new one.

To acquire the machine-readable version of the card, a citizen must present either a currently valid card (in case of renewals), or a currently valid passport, or a birth certificate and proof of citizenship.[0]

Birth certificate. Sound familiar?

>so they don't force you to acquire it and then give it back to a different part of the government.

That's not how it works in the US, you do not give away your birth certificate to a different part of the government.

>Which, again, is why 10% of Americans don't have a valid ID, a fact that you refuse to address.

That's not why 10% don't have ID nor did I fail to address it. School is mandatory in the US yet 15% of Americans are illiterate.

>Can you please name a single US state that automatically issues ID to all voters? I can't.

Not every European country has mandatory IDs. Like Europe, every state in the US has free voter IDs. Every single state, you cannot deny this fact.

>Not an answer to my question.

You don't need a known audience to virtue signal to.

>do you categorically refuse the possibility that anyone pursues justice for its own sake?

You're not pursing justice, you're spew false propaganda and fighting a problem that doesn't exist.

>Clearly no one in the MAGA...

Whataboutism.

>You keep on ignoring important words in my comment. In this case, you specifically edited out "automatic" and "mandatory." The absence of those words is why Democrats blocked the bill.

That's not why they blocked the bill.

>Literally no state has this. I live in a red state and I have to go in and request a voter ID, using appropriate evidence. They are not issued automatically.

No country issues an ID automatically to anyone who makes a request. The ID is issued to you automatically after proving who you are. You don't need to petition the state with an attorney or pay a fee.

I'll say it again, every state in the US has free voter IDs. EVERY state, red and blue.

QED.

>Calling it propganda doesn't make it untrue.

Your statement was false, untrue. You finally admitted above that you were wrong.

>My conclusion, based on the evidence presented in this thread: Either you are a terrible debater who consistently disregards evidence

Poor conclusion. Find a single state that does not have free voter IDs.

>intentionally ignoring evidence that disagrees with your preconceived conclusion.

No evidence disagrees with my original statement of fact:

Every US state issues a free voter ID cards. Even Republican strongholds.

QED.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_national_identity_card

Re: Whistleblower warns Postal Service mail ballot system has catastrophic problems

#307
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump supporters used to speak up on this site. Surely they still exist but all I hear is crickets

> Trump supporters used to speak up on this site. Surely they still exist but all I hear is crickets They are here. But their contributions are, let's say, not motivated by fact-based reasoning. Not surprising: it's very hard to defend what's going on in this country right now. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49545694 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49545156

>But their contributions are, let's say, not motivated by fact-based reasoning.

Neither are yours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49546137

Re: Whistleblower warns Postal Service mail ballot system has catastrophic problems

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

many people eligible to vote do not have the requisite ID and are unlikely to get it Just trying to understand as a non-American: which people are eligible to vote, but are unlikely to get an ID?

Canadian here, so take with a grain of salt. Both Canada and the US don't have a national ID system, at all (short of a passport). A state/province issued driver's license is the default form of ID. If you don't have a driver's license it is very possible you don't have an ID. Most (if not all?) states and provinces will have some form of "non driving" ID available if needed. However, it is optional, costs money and…

>Most (if not all?) states and provinces will have some form of "non driving" ID available if needed. However, it is optional, costs money and requires other documentation to get it, such as an original copy of a birth certificate.

False. Every state in the US has a free voter ID option.

Re: Whistleblower warns Postal Service mail ballot system has catastrophic problems

#309
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, completely normal here in Switzerland. Approx. 90% vote by mail here [1]. [1]: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/how-the-world-s-most-f...

Don’t you guys have many more referendums than other countries by nature of your direct democracy? At that point streamlining the process becomes crucial.

Yes, that's true, and we go to the polls on average four to five times per year. Indeed, this leads to making the process lean and efficient. However, this trusted process too is under pressure to change. Recently, voting via internet has been discussed, which could potentially undermine its trustworthiness.

Re: Whistleblower warns Postal Service mail ballot system has catastrophic problems

#310

Regardless what anyone thinks about the security of voting in the US. I'd hope that they could see how massively upending multiple states' voting systems 2 months before the midterms is a really bad idea. Even with the best intentions, implementing such a sweeping untested change so rapidly is a horrible idea. (No, I don't support it regardless, but surely even if you do you could recognize that the timeframe is way…

it's not a "bad idea", it's intentionally disruptive -- that's the point of it

not surprised that Trump Admin is trying to do this; it's a page out of their play dirty, break the law now and sort it out later once the courts catch up, approach to politics

but the fact that SCOTUS didn't shut it down is beyond the pale -- unconscionable

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