Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 243 posts

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#191

Post by kayodelycaon »

torginus wrote: post #119
michaelt wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two types of GPS jamming. There's GPS jamming by the military, mostly in war zones. This seldom effects airliners because they steer clear of active war zones. Then there's GPS jamming by delivery drivers who don't want their boss watching over their shoulder all the time. When the article mentions jammers as small as a cellphone and costing less than $100, those are sold to drivers. Delivery drivers don't…

If I was a concerned boss, I would likely use GSM cell info to track my drivers. While not good enough to do turn-to-turn navigation it certainly is good enough to tell where people are. Btw, don't smartphones have this built in? I remember some old and cheap Android phones without GPS that came with this.

I believe they do. It’s used to get an initial fix before you get gps coordinates. Wifi network names in range might also be used.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#192

Post by [deleted] »

stackedinserter wrote: post #177
elric wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly suspect those would be very illegal and could result in serious side effects, such as for people who use continuous glucose monitors.

Even this highly theoretical harm can be avoided if you jam bluetooth with 50% duty cycle. Like, 2s on then 2s off.

[deleted]

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#193

Post by nerdsniper »

stackedinserter wrote: post #177
elric wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly suspect those would be very illegal and could result in serious side effects, such as for people who use continuous glucose monitors.

Even this highly theoretical harm can be avoided if you jam bluetooth with 50% duty cycle. Like, 2s on then 2s off.

Clearly you don’t have a family member who uses CGM’s. They are extremely sensitive to RF disruptions, and often fail for mind bogglingly dumb reasons.

2s on / 2s off would completely disable all of their functionality until the interference was gone. And possibly much longer - they are finicky.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#194

Post by kayodelycaon »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #149
colechristensen wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're easy to find, but not necessarily with stuff from off the shelf. Professionals with the right equipment though have no trouble locating them. The FCC is happy to hand out 5 and 6 digit fines for operating a GPS jammer and has fined retailers tens of millions for selling them.

I know we all like to jack ourselves raw to the big powerful government handing out ruinous fines for things we don't like but realistically none of that is gonna stick to some McDonalds manager who's got a side gig importing Alibaba stuff or some delivery driver who bought it. You can't get blood from a stone. You're just guaranteeing the stone always stays a stone. Yeah the FCC could probably pull an ATF and shoot…

The FCC takes the public commons very seriously. Given how easy it is to make radio frequencies unusable, they need to hammer hard and fast to discourage people from trying. They don’t wait for a report to be filed, they can proactively search for violators. They may only be able to fine you but they can get law-enforcement involved. Especially if your city or state has laws against what you’re doing. You usually see this when you start messing with airplanes.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#195

Post by mannanj »

nerdsniper wrote: post #193
stackedinserter wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even this highly theoretical harm can be avoided if you jam bluetooth with 50% duty cycle. Like, 2s on then 2s off.

Clearly you don’t have a family member who uses CGM’s. They are extremely sensitive to RF disruptions, and often fail for mind bogglingly dumb reasons. 2s on / 2s off would completely disable all of their functionality until the interference was gone. And possibly much longer - they are finicky.

So they are sensitive to RF but for some reason all the RF around you, from the power lines in the walls, the WIFI, the towers, they are immune to those?

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#196

Post by bronco21016 »

andix wrote: post #190
bronco21016 wrote: post #9

Whats really sad for aviation is there was already an extensive network of ground based navaids. As GPS has proliferated, they've slowly been decommissioned as they age out to save on cost. I'm specifically referring to VORs which provide azimuth and range to station. GPS is fantastic and as a primary source everyone loves the benefits it brings. However, in a century of aviation, everyone has kinda sorted out that y…

Are there modern positioning systems that can automatically join all those data sources into one position? Traditionally navaids are treated as completely separate sources and are shown on different kind of instruments. But they could also be used as a replacement source for GNSS data on a modern map screen. Depending on their kind they might not return a specific position, but in combination with other sources they…

Yes, modern flight management computers in commercial airliners do exactly this. I can't speak to smaller aircraft.

Essentially a position is calculated from VOR/DME, GPS, and INS. When there is disagreement it is flagged and procedures are in place to fall back.

The issue is VOR/DME is slowly being decommissioned eliminating one of those sanity checks. It hasn't been degraded to the point of creating massive gaps in coverage over land but it will slowly happen if the rate of decommissioning continues.

Ultimately, INS is sufficient for enroute navigation but if you're degraded to just that state, the impacts to traffic separation, particularly in congested airspace, are significant. Required Navigation Performance (RNP) levels dictate all of this.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#197

Post by alightsoul »

nerdsniper wrote: post #193
stackedinserter wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even this highly theoretical harm can be avoided if you jam bluetooth with 50% duty cycle. Like, 2s on then 2s off.

Clearly you don’t have a family member who uses CGM’s. They are extremely sensitive to RF disruptions, and often fail for mind bogglingly dumb reasons. 2s on / 2s off would completely disable all of their functionality until the interference was gone. And possibly much longer - they are finicky.

This is such a first world problem. The speakers the post refers to are probably in a third world country where no medical equipment uses Bluetooth so jamming it poses no danger.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#198

Post by alightsoul »

itake wrote: post #137
yjrpnz440v0b2n1 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its myth youre mistaken because that would mean all the wifi devices and normal bt devices will also stop pacemaker. only early version of pacemaker before internet would be affected modern pacemakers have protection as long as you keep a safe 6 inch distance

can you cite the source? I'd imagine temporary (15 minutes?) disruption would be considered in the design of pacemakers or blood glucose monitors, but if you're using this in close proximity for a long period of time... then wouldn't there be problems?

In a third world country which are the most affected by this, Pacemakers are very rare and if you have one chances are you live in a rich area where you don't live with neighbors who do that. People die before they ever get a chance at having a pacemaker and the very conditions that require it are very rare in those areas in the first place

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#199

Post by alightsoul »

embedding-shape wrote: post #146
blululu wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This guy has an open schematic: https://github.com/cifertech/RF-Clown You can use their files to make one via a pcb vendor like jlpcb or you can look for someone who has already done that: https://www.tindie.com/products/ryanyu/rf-clown-v20-esp32-wi...

These "solutions" always seem too broad with too much collateral damage. Would this be doable to do with a directional antenna or something instead, so you could aim at the specific speaker (in your own house) you want silenced?

You will need to use your own

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#200

Post by not_a_bot_4sho »

stackedinserter wrote: post #178
ivanjermakov wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should be easy to purchase a 2.4GHz jammer, about as easy as to get in trouble for using it though.

How do you _realistically_ get in trouble for using it? Jam 2.4 at an airport or near military base?

This guy was caught for jamming cell phones on his commute to "keep people off their phones". I heard of a similar case of someone doing the same on their bus commute but don't have a link for that handy atm

https://www.pcmag.com/news/fla-man-fined-48k-for-jamming-cel...

Post reply on HN