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Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

theguardian.com

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Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#201

Post by antonvs »

autoexec wrote: post #159
antonvs wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pluto makes for a great lesson about science itself. I disagree. Quibbling about a definition like that is like quibbling about whether a certain bird is a black-crowned Night-Heron or a black-crowned Night Heron (without the second hyphen), which is a real controversy that took place. I suppose it shows a socially constructed, human aspect of science, but it really has very little to do with actually understanding…

In a sense you're right, the need to classify things is really for our convenience. Those classifications can be extremely helpful though and it's for that reason that we try to come up with good systems of classification and re-evaluate what goes where as we learn more. The universe doesn’t care about our arbitrary stamp-collection-style classification of objects, anymore than it cares about where elements sit on th…

Your point is valid - we do need to classify things for our own mental convenience - but I don't think the Pluto case is an example of it.

In many ways, the Pluto situation is an example of the Buddhist metaphor about the finger pointing at the moon. The finger is not the moon. Obsessing over the definition of "planet" to that degree doesn't actually achieve anything useful - it's a classic example of confusing labels with the thing being labeled.

The Pluto "controversy" was just bad "science" being committed by a committee.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#203

Post by baggy_trough »

Aachen wrote: post #95
baggy_trough wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a nice round number to use as a clear boundary.

Why not just have it be rounded under its own gravity? Collapse two rules into one. If nice round systems with clear boundaries is what you're going for

You still have to have some subjective number to decide how round something has to be, and it admits too many small objects.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#204

Post by lirolero »

odyssey7 wrote: post #99
autoexec wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pluto makes for a great lesson about science itself. Our view of the universe we live in changes over time as we get more information about it. Children should learn to expect that and to understand that it isn't a bad thing, or a flaw with science, but a vital part of the process and when it happens things are working as intended. That means that today Pluto isn't a planet, even though for a small time it used to be…

I appreciate your contribution to the discussion. I’d have to point out that Pluto both is and is not a planet, depending on the context — it depends on whom you ask and the situation in which you ask. What would you say to scientists and laypersons who consider Pluto to be a planet? How would you persuade them to your own viewpoint? Please give at least three examples and use at least three paragraphs.

> What would you say to scientists and laypersons who consider Pluto to be a planet?

"Fuck off"

> How would you persuade them to your own viewpoint?

I wouldn't. I don't care about them.

> Please give at least three examples and use at least three paragraphs.

Fuck off!!!

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#205

Post by d--b »

mr_toad wrote: post #177
d--b wrote: post #100

Humanity's need to categorize things never ceases to amaze me. Is it Art? It's not Art! Are bananas a vegetable or a fruit? Pluto definitely is a planet! No it's not! Jesus, what a waste of energy. Are we just realizing that asteroids come in all sizes? Do we really need a sharp boundary between those we call planets and those we don't call planets? Can we consider planethood a spectrum? Like should we REALLY care if…

Not classifying things seems like a really good way to get your fingers burnt, or get poisoned, starved, or eaten, drowned, or die in many different interesting ways.

So, let me get that straight: calling Pluto a planet or not is now a matter of life and death?

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#206

Post by odyssey7 »

Timon3 wrote: post #181
odyssey7 wrote: post #53

The problem is that the word “planet” refers both to cultural symbols — mythology, gods, archetypes, and the heavens — and to objects of scientific study. Those are different domains, and one of them is cultural heritage, and the other is irritating when it tries to infringe on the first one. There’s no need for a god complex. Stop picking and choosing which planets are real. Scientists can create their own, more pre…

Why would a change today be such a violation of a sacred concept, when Pluto was added not even a century ago? If anything, it seems like the scientists back then had a god complex, and this would be rectifying their mistake.

Scientists can do whatever they like. The problem is when they try to exert control over other scientists and members of the general public. We have both freedom of speech and freedom of association, which means the IAU has no authority to govern my own speech, and it’s irritating that so many people seem gleeful to tell me otherwise.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#207

Post by saati »

hn_submit wrote: post #9

I'm in the same camp. I believe the classification of Pluto as a dwarf planet was arbitrary and inconsistent. I mean, it's been known as a planet for almost 80 years and suddenly we demote it? I believe someone was trying to make a name for themselves here and ignoring the history of Pluto and its discovery.

Okay, so Pluto should be a planet, but then are you fighting for planetary classification of Ceres? Eris? Haumea, Makemake, Gonggong? Quaoar, Orcus, Sedna, Mani, Achlys, Aya, Chiminigugua, Varda, Ixion, Goibniu, Ritona, Uno, Varuna? 2005QY182? 2002XW93? The other 200-10000 that is very likely to lurk out there?

If you aren't you are totally inconsistent and just want what you were taught in elementary school be true.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#208

Post by myrmidon »

wbl wrote: post #113
pfdietz wrote: post #110

The obvious solution to this issue is to destroy Pluto.(*) Many problems can be solved by application of sufficiently powerful explosives. (*) Or, possibly, eject it from the Solar System.

SUNDIAL says hello.

Gravitational binding energy is too large.

Project sundial was ~10Gt of TNT, but dispersing Pluto would require a billion times that (~5E27J).

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#209

Post by BoxOfRain »

autoexec wrote: post #103
odyssey7 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your contribution to the discussion. I’d have to point out that Pluto both is and is not a planet, depending on the context — it depends on whom you ask and the situation in which you ask. What would you say to scientists and laypersons who consider Pluto to be a planet? How would you persuade them to your own viewpoint? Please give at least three examples and use at least three paragraphs.

Pluto is a dwarf planet. It feels like less of a "is and is not" situation, and more of an "isn't, but was once thought to be" situation. Some people remember being told that it was a planet when they were kids and they cling to that even though we've learned that it doesn't make sense to call it a planet anymore. Apart from that it shows up as a planet in literature, almost all of which was written before we knew be…

That book title and my vague memory the same author had a hand in naming Eris makes me think they've encountered the Principia Discordia at one time or another.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#210

Post by zdragnar »

ummonk wrote: post #124
zdragnar wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the alternative would be to make up some latin sounding words for planets, dwarf planets, etc. and leave the vulgar planet alone to the standard 9 that we all know are planets.

No that would be an argument to return to the original definition of planets (highly visible celestial objects that migrate across the sky, i.e. the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn). If you believe in the "standard 9" you're just insisting on returning to a scientific definition of planets but one that is frozen on our scientific understanding from a few decades ago...

The argument is to not make any changes to what people call planets but to instead have taken the opportunity in 2006 to create a separate classification system. Use something vaguely Latin sounding like planitus or whatever.
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