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EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

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Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#241

Post by 0xy »

m4ck_ wrote: post #59
0xy wrote: post #11

First they say data centers should pay their own way on power infrastructure, then when they start springing up entirely off-grid and fully self-funded power infrastructure, suddenly there's a new problem. The problem was never power or water (water being a known Chinese spy op after Karen Hao was caught exaggerating water usage by 1,000x in her book).

>The problem was never power or water Correct. The problem isn't just data centers or power or water, it's that left unchecked these greedy people will risk the power grid, drain rivers/reservoirs/aquifers, and destroy our natural environment (and cities) with pollution because it's more profitable than doing things the right way. I think more than anything we want responsible, friendly neighbors who are mindful of t…

>And people who farm real crops should be forced to convert to less water-intensive methods or shut down.

Taking this to its logical conclusion, you want to export the negative externalities of a theoretical water shortage to poor countries who will move to replace the food gap caused by farmers shutting down.

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#242

Post by butvacuum »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #212
inigyou wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it any different from "we want an asphalt parking lot but it's not worth the asphalt cost" or "we want a giant sign but the pole to hang it on is too expensive" or "we want an asphalt parking lot but renting the machine to paint the lines is too expensive" or "we want to be open 24/7 but we can't afford to cover third shift"?

Because this is a constraint we've imposed upon ourselves to the detriment of the public. It's like how you have all sorts of workplaces with absolutely moronic rats nests of extension cords and power strips and whatnot because you don't need a permit to plug stuff in. They're following the rule and arriving at a stupider worse solution and we're all poorer for it. We could literally be richer at the stroke of a pen.…

It sounds an awful lot like you are willfully ignorant on water management.

Considering how accessable the basics are, I'm having trouble believing your argument is in good faith.

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#243

Post by KaiserPro »

dukeofdoom wrote: post #141
KaiserPro wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ok, but if AI is doing it better, then they won't be working remote, they'd be just unemployed.

Sure, they'll be unemployed until they chose to do something else that people will pay for. Like I was reading some guy is making downloads for Minecraft and making great living in it (science fiction a few decades ago). Worse case scenerio, move to the country side, and homestead. Thats how people survived wars and famines. Surely they can survive a tech transition.

Basic economic education has failed an entire generation, if not more.

If there is a surplus of labour, will that increase wages, or depress them?

Doctors are only able to charge that much because there are so few of them. With AI, mean average wage of programmers will drop, because you don't need as many of them (thats the idea anyway)

So that person making downloads for minecraft, whats going to happen if there are 10x more people doing it? will their income overall go up, or down?

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#244

Post by cucumber3732842 »

butvacuum wrote: post #242
cucumber3732842 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this is a constraint we've imposed upon ourselves to the detriment of the public. It's like how you have all sorts of workplaces with absolutely moronic rats nests of extension cords and power strips and whatnot because you don't need a permit to plug stuff in. They're following the rule and arriving at a stupider worse solution and we're all poorer for it. We could literally be richer at the stroke of a pen.…

It sounds an awful lot like you are willfully ignorant on water management. Considering how accessable the basics are, I'm having trouble believing your argument is in good faith.

It's all bullshit. I get the whole sponge principal. It's make-work bullshit to make everyone do all this BS when it would be infinitely more efficient to solve this stuff wholesale on a municipal level and reap the benefits of letting property development be constrained by one less requirement to shovel money at certain people.

Same basic argument in favor of municipal sewer over super fancy super high cost septic systems.

Aquifer replenishment isn't a concern in many states so that's a non-issue as far as I care, let the places who need to deal with it deal with it.

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#245

Post by jordanb »

0xy wrote: post #229
jordanb wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to build a torment nexus and these negative ninnies complained that it used up all the electricity, so I made a machine that turns breathable air into toxic smoke to power the nexus and they don't like that ether!

US emissions are down dramatically per capita since 2000. From 2024 to 2026, green energy sources were 96.6% of new capacity coming online.

The data canters are using gas turbines and diesel generators.

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#246

Post by tzs »

0xy wrote: post #231
kasey_junk wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aluminum smelters have run their own power generation for ages and don’t get to skip epa regulations.

Aluminium isn't the same level of national security importance as AI is.

US national security does not need thousands of new AI data centers built in a short time frame.

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#247

Post by tzs »

0xy wrote: post #229
jordanb wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to build a torment nexus and these negative ninnies complained that it used up all the electricity, so I made a machine that turns breathable air into toxic smoke to power the nexus and they don't like that ether!

US emissions are down dramatically per capita since 2000. From 2024 to 2026, green energy sources were 96.6% of new capacity coming online.

How is that relevant?

(1) The data centers under discussion aren't using green energy sources.

(2) The overall emission numbers aren't really relevant to the people who live near large emitters. It is the local numbers that affect their health.

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#248

Post by solid_fuel »

rayiner wrote: post #217
sensanaty wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It literally is just a cartoon villain plan. The AI companies look at something called the "Acid Rain Program" and think to themselves "Fuck that, what's a bit of acid rain going to do?". I truly cannot comprehend the mindset here as hard as I try

When it comes to laws, do you just look at the title of the law, or do you look at the actual statute and regulations to see what the law applies to and what it doesn’t? Does a “vehicle inspection program” meant for commercial trucks apply to your car just because the title fits? In this case, there is a 25 year old regulation that specifies what this program applies to and what it doesn’t. https://www.ecfr.gov/curre…

Blah blah blah. Yap yap yap. It’s funny how the laws always apply until it’s a rich fucker breaking them.

You might be fine with skirting the technicalities, but the rest of us have to live here and breathe the air.

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#249

Post by tialaramex »

toast0 wrote: post #191
tialaramex wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you looking at a textbook from the 1990s or something? I'm sure that was true at some point, but it hasn't been true for a long time.

It seems likely to happen again. Many US utility coal fired power plants are scheduled for retirement and will not be replaced with new coal facilities. [1] China is building lots of new coal generation, but also lots of new solar so coal use will be reduced during daylight (not the way a coal plant wants to run, but they'll adapt) Give it a few more years and data centers with onsite coal will look like a genius cos…

> Give it a few more years and data centers with onsite coal will look like a genius cost cutting idea. Never mind all the pollution.

The numbers keep getting worse. Building "onsite coal" is more expensive than solar and storage, but now it needs more expensive fuel and you need to dispose of the toxic coal ash which won't be free either.

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#250

Post by xboxnolifes »

0xy wrote: post #11

First they say data centers should pay their own way on power infrastructure, then when they start springing up entirely off-grid and fully self-funded power infrastructure, suddenly there's a new problem. The problem was never power or water (water being a known Chinese spy op after Karen Hao was caught exaggerating water usage by 1,000x in her book).

Can you explain to me how that means its a Chinese spy op?
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