Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice • Hacker News Board

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#91

Post by sjg007 » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 10:31 PM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #84

Roshini wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It is pretty much impossible to overload your body's ability to absorb carbohydrates without a) exploding your stomach or b) you have some other health problem. By the time the food you eat gets to the bacteria, there are no sugar, fat or protein left. We absorb it all. We store extra of the first two and excrete the third (in a modified form) through urine. Refined/processed food should be eaten in minimal quant…

> Refined/processed food should be eaten in minimal quantities because it spikes blood sugar and causes insulin fatigue, which in the long run causes Type II diabetes. What precisely does refined/processed food mean, from a chemistry standpoint? Is there a particular common process that transforms my homegrown lettuce into "refined lettuce"?

The refining process breaks down complex carbs into simpler carbs.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#92

Post by gamache » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 10:34 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #75

gamache wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CBD is most definitely psychoactive. It also accounts for about 25-50% of marijuana's active components, so we are living in a world full of long-term data. Cannabidiol is most definitely illegal in the US, too. That DixieX site you link to is just hemp oil products -- no psychoactives.

CBD is considered non-psychoactive by fiat. This is because it has a low affinity for receptor sites in the brain and it doesn't cause significant impairment. You may or may not be able to feel it though. And it's definitely not 25-50% of most commercial strains (unless specifically bred for it), that may be true of certain landrace varietals though. Also the amount of cannabinoids DixieX is citing is actually the mi…

It's surprising to me that CBD is fiat-legal; not only is it a prominent cannabinoid, it's one acid wash away from becoming THC. http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-351514.html

And I don't mean 25-50% of the plant mass, I mean CBD will often make up 25-50% of an extract. (Wikipedia has my back with a 40% figure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol)

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#93

Post by tdfx » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 10:48 PM UTC

indiecore wrote: post #37

AsylumWarden wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you are still wrong. I am morbidly obese and struggle with my weight daily. It will kill me in the end but I want to know what you would do when your metabolism is so low that your normal body temperature hangs at around 97.2F and resists being raised even by means of medications and heavy exercise. I'm sorry but when numerous doctors over 20 years all throw their hands up and say they can't help then there is no…

If your condition is as you describe than I'm sorry for you but you're one of like 0.1% of the population (probably less). It's fine, you got dealt a shit hand but you aren't saying that being obese is a healthy lifestyle and the thing is other people are . Everyone I've ever known or read about has gained weight by eating more and lost weight by eating less, again less and more vary from individual to individual but…

"Calories in / calories out" is far from scientific. 500 calories of ice cream will not have the same effect on your body as 500 calories of lean chicken breast. It's a very rough approximation intended to get people thinking about their calorie intake and expenditures, but it's becoming very annoying to see people representing it as some kind of quantifiable scientific formula.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#94

Post by hcarvalhoalves » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 10:55 PM UTC

jonnathanson wrote: post #89

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fiber helps your bowels work correctly. We were not created to evacuate bricks. You don't need a PhD in organic chemistry and biology to understand that, just experience with babies.

Well, yes and no. A lot of cultures live almost exclusively on carnivorous diets, in which vegetable fiber is extremely rare (if eaten at all). Evidently the fats in the diet serve as lubricants in the absence of the mechanical action that fibers serve in the intestines. I'm not disputing that fibers help "push things along" by absorbing water, adding bulk, etc. But are we overeating them? Do we really need to be mak…

> A lot of cultures live almost exclusively on carnivorous diets, in which vegetable fiber is extremely rare (if eaten at all).

Eskimos' diet is not a parameter to anyone other than Eskimos. Those populations have adapted to survive on those diets, and even then, with drawbacks to health and life expectancy. Also, Eskimos are certainly the exception, saying a lot of cultures live on meat only is a stretch.

> I'm not disputing that fibers help "push things along" by absorbing water, adding bulk, etc. But are we overeating them? Do we really need to be making a conscious effort to add or supplement them in our diets?

Fibers are integral part of a diet with minimal amounts of fruits, vegetables or grains. You don't need to add fibers unless all you eat is processed food.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#95

Post by scott_s » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 11:36 PM UTC

AutoKorrect wrote: post #87

MichaelGG wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it actually interesting? Even the rules were chosen randomly, you'd expect any large body of rules to get something by sheer chance alone.

yes, it is interesting. Consider that vitamin C was known to prevent scurvy, but then that knowledge was lost, and rediscovered later on. How much knowledge may be codified in ancient customs, and that we might have forgotten the foundations for that knowledge.

Vitamin C was not known to prevent scurvy. Citrus fruits, which contain vitamin C, were known to prevent scurvy, but no one knew why. They had theories, but the theories were wrong.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#96

Post by tlb » Thu, Dec 20, 2012, 12:11 AM UTC

splatcollision wrote: post #18

Gut bacteria are an extremely powerful system within our bodies and are mostly still mysterious to us. Imbalances of one type or another lead to large amounts of bacterial toxins being introduced to the intestine and the bloodstream, with wide-ranging mental and physical effects. I'm not surprised that contribution to obesity is among them. It works kind of like this: You eat too much refined/processed food, that is…

You can pre-order a kit to get your intestinal biome mapped for $69. See http://www.ubiome.com/

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#97

Post by aantix » Thu, Dec 20, 2012, 12:20 AM UTC

msarvar wrote: post #77

Able7 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No antibiotics were involved but the WTP diet consisted of 1344Cal daily diet of canned porridge (. . ."4 cans of gruel per day" . . .) - Quoted from 'Supplimental Material' to the original study publication http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ism... . But, there is absolutely no specific information as to the actual ingredients of the "porridge/gruel" so there seems to be no way to actually repe…

So they basically put him on a strict low calorie diet, and he lost weight? No way!

Please stop oversimplifying. With the existence of the bacteria, mice were obese. By means of their diet and prebiotics, they were able to reduce the levels of this bacteria in their subject.

Could be just the caloric deficit, could be the bacteria. It's an interesting correlation and should be explored further.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#98

Post by fotbr » Thu, Dec 20, 2012, 12:31 AM UTC

leephillips wrote: post #44

king_jester wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't care if someone is fat. What I care about is the loons saying that it's healthy and fine to be morbidly obese and they use stuff like this to back it up. Being morbidly obese and healthy? Very unlikely to be true. Morbidly obese and ok with? That's 100% legit, it's your body and you are free to do as you please. > No, it's calories in vs calories out. Maybe these bacteria make you want to eat more, maybe th…

"it's your body and you are free to do as you please." When obese people fly they rarely buy two seats. They can pretend that their state of health doesn't affect the people around them, but they are deceiving themselves.

I'm still technically obese, but better than I was. I'm big, but I'm not exceptionally wide. If I was an inch taller, I'd merely be "overweight". If I were 4 inches taller, I'd be pretty close to "normal" weight.

I fit in a standard airline seat without hanging over the armrest into the next seat, so why should I pay for it? So yeah, my state of health isn't particularly good right now, but it actually isn't affecting anyone I fly with.

Blanket generalizations don't do anyone any good.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#99

Post by chc » Thu, Dec 20, 2012, 12:43 AM UTC

not_that_noob wrote: post #19

schoper wrote: post #11

ISME Journal. 1. Two independent facts from the experiment: A pathogen that causes obesity (in mice) seems to be active in some obese humans. 2. Severely restricted diet seems to powerfully reduce the population of this organism. I doubt that these facts are unrelated. It's classic host-parasite behavior. The pathogen depends on high calorie intake in its host, and therefore engineers that behavior (somehow). Further…

Very interesting observation re parasitic behavior. I suspect that with modern food processing techniques to make food relentlessly cheaper, we have unwittingly enhanced the food supply for the parasite.

It's not really unwitting. Anything that increases nutrition for humans necessarily increases the food supply for creatures that prey on humans. Similarly, boosting the rabbit population enhances the food supply for creatures that prey on rabbits.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#100

Post by aaronblohowiak » Thu, Dec 20, 2012, 12:49 AM UTC

Udo wrote: post #88

checker wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive my naivete (I have a passing knowledge about diet), but isn't 'complex polysaccharides' more or less a synonym for 'complex carbohydrates' (excluding oligosaccharides)? I feel that most readily available refined/processed food is low in complex carbs since the processing breaks them down, and because simple carbs are cheaper and taste better. Essentially my question is this: A fresh vegetarian diet is going t…

You are correct to doubt the meaning of these words as they are being flung around for the sole reason of providing credibility. Your mistake is coming with scientific thoughts into a discussion that is utterly non-scientific and purely based on making money with buzzword-laden books by turning anything related to food into a weird cult-like experience. But at least your questions are in an area where I can maybe hel…

> It's not like the bacteria cause obesity as some articles suggest, their presence is itself a symptom of a nutritional problem (such as too much intake)

this article suggests the bacteria are causing obesity, and explores it by having a flora transplant into a regularly non-obese mouse that causes obesity in that mouse.