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Anthropic's best AI model struggles to attract users as cheaper tools thrive

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Re: Anthropic's best AI model struggles to attract users as cheaper tools thrive

#301

Post by foxylad »

Non-LLM user here. Why? Apart from the ecological issues, I'm very uncomfortable giving my organisation's crown jewels to {random_internet__corp}. Look at the lengths they go to for training data - 10M for Spirit's call logs? Destroying millions of obscure books to scan them? They make meth-heads look scrupulous.

Your prompts, especially if they contain your entire codebase, are _way_ more data-rich than an airline phone call or 1920's novel. So they _are_ going to train on them, no matter how many checkboxes you tick to stop them. Which is both a commercial risk and a massive new attack surface.

It's not just software developers; if law firms aren't controlling any public LLM prompts _very_ carefully, they can expect some meaty client confidentiality suits. In fact any organisation in a competitive environment should be worried: Acme Bolts: "Write me a presentation for Zoom Construction". Beta Bolts: "Is Acme Bolts pitching to Zoom Construction?"

Maybe this is part of why OpenAI and Anthropic are finding demand softer than they would like. And why open-weight models that organisations can run on exclusive hardware are thriving.

Re: Anthropic's best AI model struggles to attract users as cheaper tools thrive

#302

Post by svachalek »

Grimburger wrote: post #285
wahnfrieden wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was flagged for account-sharing, or detecting a compromised account

How do you know there wasn't account sharing though? I've seen some amazingly dodgy stuff when hiring people from south east Asia, sharing a paid account with friends worth a months rent there seems milquetoast in comparison.

There clearly was account sharing, someone logged into the wife's account from the Phillipines.

Re: Anthropic's best AI model struggles to attract users as cheaper tools thrive

#303

Post by zsoltkacsandi »

8cvor6j844qw_d6 wrote: post #109
dwaltrip wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven’t hit the Fable guardrails a single time after substantial usage. And I’m working on a ML project (a game AI). I don’t doubt people are hitting it… shrugs

It tends to bail occasionally for me once auth-related code comes into play. Nowadays Codex handles the bulk of the implementation and Fable/Opus on the planning. Not sure if Anthropic patched it, but early on its release the web UI Fable guardrails will trip if you mention you're a biologist.

> It tends to bail occasionally for me once auth-related code comes into play.

I have the same experience. I found that if I add to the prompt: “but it’s not security related, we only focus on the auth library design”, it “bypasses” the safeguard.

Re: Anthropic's best AI model struggles to attract users as cheaper tools thrive

#304

Post by nl »

OrangeDelonge wrote: post #298
nl wrote: post #295

Wow the sentiment here is so negative. I'm on the $200 plan (work pays) and I also have the $20 OpenAI plan (I pay) and keep a balance on OpenRouter. There is nothing as good as Fable, not even close. I recently had it run a 18 hour autonomous rebuild of a project (moving from Spark to Pandas for performance/data size trade off issues). It orchestrated Opus sub-agents flawlessly for 18 hours. It even did a great job…

Did it take 18 hours because Fable is comically slow?

I think it's actually Opus 5 that is comically slow! And yes probably that was a factor. It was a lot of code too though.

Re: Anthropic's best AI model struggles to attract users as cheaper tools thrive

#305

Post by bluegatty »

carlosjobim wrote: post #251
bluegatty wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social issues aside, that's a tiny slice of the economics of AI. Just by nature of how often it's used etc. You need workloads for AI be cost effective: software, automation etc.

International trade is a giant sector already, and potentially much bigger than that, now that LLM assisted translation makes it easy to offer your products and services in any language, or make complicated and sensitive deals without a common language. Hackers always rage and down vote every time I mention this, because they are unable to see beyond their small world. Why didn't they learn that their part of the int…

Product marketing and contracts will be a 'common use case' we think of, but it will be 0.000001% of tokens consumed.

A developer using sub-agents will consume more tokens 1 Day than a marketing manager will consume 1 Month, easily.

Unless there is something inherently automated about the nature of the AI, it will be a tiny % use case.

Even a lawyer, using AI daily for contracts - that will be relatively light use. They'll make more use doing legal research etc.

Developers and Automation are the 'primary' uses cases for AI, and in the future, we'll start to see AI integrated into Apps - that will be 85% of tokens consumed.

Yes - once translation becomes realtime, and we have our Star Trek Universal Translators, then translation will become more visible, but even by then, a relatively small part of overall consumption, even if it's more highly visible.

Re: Anthropic's best AI model struggles to attract users as cheaper tools thrive

#306

Post by epsteingpt »

nl wrote: post #295

Wow the sentiment here is so negative. I'm on the $200 plan (work pays) and I also have the $20 OpenAI plan (I pay) and keep a balance on OpenRouter. There is nothing as good as Fable, not even close. I recently had it run a 18 hour autonomous rebuild of a project (moving from Spark to Pandas for performance/data size trade off issues). It orchestrated Opus sub-agents flawlessly for 18 hours. It even did a great job…

the sentiment is negative and justified. anthropic nanny states what you can do.

in your instance, anthropic may decide, arbitrarily, to stop 'autonomous rebuilds / refactors and ports' because they could pose some alignment/rights/etc risk to whatever slop their philosophers dream up while they're out eating $200 avocado toasts. then you can't do the thing anymore.

fable is good, absolutely. agree it roasts Sol which is, comparatively, a little receipt-hunting jack**

but now imagine being an enterprise, and having another organization not only taking your workflows and baking it into your models, but then deciding they can arbitrarily cut you off.

when you can instead own your data, use an agnostic provider, and get better results (through model combinations), it will take 1-2 quarters to figure it out.

the main reason anthropic is killing it is because they really do understand the enterprise development experience and lifecycle and have built products and have a sales-team that can deliver.

business-model and vibes-wise they have lost all goodwill in the past 6 months, and that momentum will be quite hard to regain.

Re: Anthropic's best AI model struggles to attract users as cheaper tools thrive

#307

Post by runako »

nl wrote: post #299
runako wrote: post #166

The US government basically told them they can't sell "Fable" and so they aren't. That's probably 90% of the story. Once the government stepped in, their 5th generation was effectively killed. They either had to lock it up (Mythos), neuter it (Fable), or leave people with the perception they were overpaying for a weaker model (Opus 5). Hopefully Anthropic has learned to anticipate this risk and has a plan for rollout…

> The US government basically told them they can't sell "Fable" and so they aren't.... They either had to lock it up (Mythos), neuter it (Fable), But this isn't what happened? It was only a couple of months ago! How can we be getting this completely backwards already! Fable was aready what they were selling to the general public, and that is what the US government stopped them selling (not Mythos!) Anthropic tuned th…

You're agreeing with me.

Mythos was locked down to a few customers.

Fable went wide.

USG told them to stop selling Fable.

They tweaked Fable to appease the USG, but it clearly refuses/downshifts more requests than e.g. Opus 5. (I have run into Fable refusals even doing really normal stuff like fixing bugs reported by static security scanners like Brakeman. Not downshifts, outright refusals.)

So the net result is they put "Fable" back on the market, but it was perceived to be a worse overall experience, at much higher cost. (Remember all this happened before most users had really even had a chance to put Fable through its paces.)

That's where we are today: Mythos is locked, Fable is neutered. They probably can't fix this until they are ready to release something that's not called Fable, or that they can say has some key architectural differences to Fable. The sword of capricious regulation is always going to be hanging over Fable.

Re: Anthropic's best AI model struggles to attract users as cheaper tools thrive

#308

Post by epsteingpt »

The rate of model improvement has slowed, and may not recover.

It's unclear if Mythos2 or 3 or whatever they're calling their next model will be an improvement for most common enterprise use cases.

LLMs can't solve basic things (writing non-slop documents, understanding context without massive handholding) and for coding other models are quickly becoming 'good enough' without the same cost and nannying.

That's why Anthropic is 'stealing' workflows.

But it turns out it's much harder to push adoption when your users don't really want to use your product.

Code was a unique use case where the code luddites were loud but a minority - most people don't want to update 300 cases of variables across their code base for a name change. Most don't want to write unit tests.

There are a few use cases where that will happen (law is next, maybe quant finance) - but otherwise most companies are throwing money into a pit and getting 0 return.

It's a very interesting race and state of affairs, but Kimi K3 and likely the next DeepSeek models will put the high price token affair to rest.

Unless of course, mythos / next model really does solve some universally applicable problem that people want it it to do.

Re: Anthropic's best AI model struggles to attract users as cheaper tools thrive

#309

Post by hakanderyal »

adastra22 wrote: post #254
brookst wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah same. Multiple 20x max accounts, I typically hit > 50% of the fable usage limit on eace, literally never seen a guardrail. Maybe I’m boring? Maybe they have some kind of account reputation system?

Be careful, this is against ToS and they bill ban you.

It's not, at least for now. Various staff members have confirmed this.

Re: Anthropic's best AI model struggles to attract users as cheaper tools thrive

#310

Post by Vespasian »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #185
codebje wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pay for my tokens for my own projects, at least when the ones Google seems willing to keep throwing at me for free don't cut it. I'd think that's not too uncommon, especially here where there's likely a high ratio of hobby coders (whether also professionals or otherwise).

I also pay but just the $20 plan and just for chats/lightweight personal site editing. I get unlimited token usage from my company. In my company the average claude token usage is something like $5k/month/employee. Most hobby coders don't spend anywhere close to it.

I strongly suspect most companies don't spend that much either.

Unlimited tokens aka unlimited cost is something that not every use case needs.

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