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Devices with GrapheneOS support should be available in 2027

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Re: Devices with GrapheneOS support should be available in 2027

#311

Post by grapheneos »

Pfhortune wrote: post #252
Cider9986 wrote: post #29

Specific devices: >At the time of writing, within ~12 months, in 2027, the 2027 Signature, Razr fold, and Razr flip will meet the hardware security requirements and should have official GrapheneOS support. Motorola is currently porting GrapheneOS to their devices. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49038982

GrapheneOS on a flip is my dream. I tried with the ZFlips a couple of times but Samsung's kitchen-sink approach is just not for me.

We should be able to support the next generation of the Razr Ultra. It will take longer for the lower end devices to meet our requirements for updates and hardware-based security features.

We think folding devices are a lot more useful and likely to get more users but we already have those via Pixels so flip devices are compelling as a new form factor. We're also interested in having support for new tablets.

Re: Devices with GrapheneOS support should be available in 2027

#312

Post by grapheneos »

BoldColdHold wrote: post #173
LarryDarrell wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew it would be their higher end devices but I really wish they would have put it on their lower end as well. I have a Moto G running LineageOS and it's my favorite phone ever. The ability to have my 800GB of music synced to a sdcard is something I'm loath to give up.

Lower end devices simply don't have the hardware required.

We need the devices to meet our requirements so that's the main limitation. The current generation Snapdragon 8 Elite Gen 5 is the only one providing hardware memory tagging (MTE). Even the slightly lower end Snapdragon 8 Gen 5 doesn't support MTE. The next generation flagship SoC has improvements needed to meet our requirements. There's still going to be a lot of porting and integration work. We'll be the first ones using MTE for the whole kernel and OS as we are on Pixels so there's going to be a lot to deal with for it. For Pixels, Google did do testing for MTE across the OS internally but even on Pixels it isn't perfectly supported and we have to fix a lot of memory corruption bugs it finds in both the kernel and userspace.

Re: Devices with GrapheneOS support should be available in 2027

#313

Post by Cider9986 »

throwfaraway135 wrote: post #171

I get that you don't like Twitter/Facebook/Reddit or whatever, but a clear solution to this problem is to hurt googles public image as much as you can and for that you need a platform with as large of a reach as possible. edit: they have X but didn't post it there https://x.com/GrapheneOS

They post on Twitter more than anywhere else. This was a reply not a announcement or post. There are likely similar replies to this on their Twitter. Their communication is a goldmine for privacy and security info so even replies can be interesting enough to start discussion.

They have official chatrooms on Matrix and Discord and a forum on their website. They have unofficial (but run by them) chatrooms on SimpleX and Telegram and maybe other platforms idk.

They are not about avoiding big tech specifically, they make practical choices to improve privacy and security of their users.

Here's a statement with some ethos.

https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2044440381803069778#m

Re: Devices with GrapheneOS support should be available in 2027

#314

Post by grapheneos »

embedding-shape wrote: post #230
LarryDarrell wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew it would be their higher end devices but I really wish they would have put it on their lower end as well. I have a Moto G running LineageOS and it's my favorite phone ever. The ability to have my 800GB of music synced to a sdcard is something I'm loath to give up.

I had Motorola Moto Gs all from the first generation to the fifth or sixth, cheap and worked great, had everything one could wish for in a daily smartphone. But eventually they too started growing in size, and so I got an iPhone 12 Mini instead, that I still use to this day. I'm currently hoping I'll find something released in 2025+ that is the same size as the Mini or the old Moto Gs, but they are nowhere to be foun…

We want to support cheaper devices too but flagships will be the first ones meeting all of our update and security features requirements. Providing hardware memory tagging (MTE) and a good enough secure element with the modern AOSP APIs are the main requirements for hardware security features.

Snapdragon 8 Elite Gen 5 is the only current Snapdragon SoC with hardware memory tagging since even the slightly lower end Snapdragon 8 Gen 5 didn't provide it due to being developed a bit earlier despite being launched later. They tried to provide it for both but didn't get it fully working in time. The next generation makes major secure element improvements. We potentially could have supported a Snapdragon 8 Elite Gen 5 with a secure element from another company but there wasn't enough time and the next generation is a lot better in multiple ways. There's still a large amount of porting and integration work remaining to do.

Re: Devices with GrapheneOS support should be available in 2027

#315

Post by grapheneos »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #133

Anyone want to place bets in whether this will be an unlockable bootloader, or some GrapheneOS only install path? Sure would be nice to have phones that can be rooted, or OS replaced. I've been hopeful this would perhaps enable that, but I fret my excitement may be premature.

Providing an unlockable bootloader with all of the security features intact for alternate operating systems is part of our hardware requirements. Our main requirements are listed at https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices which covers both updates and hardware security features.

Re: Devices with GrapheneOS support should be available in 2027

#316

Post by grapheneos »

gf000 wrote: post #223
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #133

Anyone want to place bets in whether this will be an unlockable bootloader, or some GrapheneOS only install path? Sure would be nice to have phones that can be rooted, or OS replaced. I've been hopeful this would perhaps enable that, but I fret my excitement may be premature.

If google allows that for pixels, I don't see why Motorola wouldn't. Besides, GrapheneOS would probably don't want to get into a situation where their keys are burnt into hardware non-modifiable. They had to revoke such a key once in order to protect their users (against an attempt to hijack the project).

Providing an unlockable bootloader with all of the security features intact for alternate operating systems is part of our hardware requirements. Our main requirements are listed at https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices which covers both updates and hardware security features.

Re: Devices with GrapheneOS support should be available in 2027

#317

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

grapheneos wrote: post #289
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the existing apps are on Android and iOS. Graphene lets you run them. We have waydroid for that. > You can't have a bank account on a Linux phone* because they won't let you, but you can on Android including on Graphene. Unless of course it uses those stupid integrity apis to block anything that isn't stock.

GrapheneOS primarily exists to greatly improve privacy and security compared to the Android Open Source Project (AOSP). AOSP provides far better privacy and security than a traditional desktop Linux distribution. It has a strong mandatory app sandbox, an increasingly good permission model moving more and more towards case-by-case consent, broad use of memory safe languages throughout the OS and app ecosystem, strong…

The claim I responded to was:

1. Android has existing apps.

2. A subset of existing apps will refuse to run on various shades of non-stock/unofficial system.

I pointed out that 1. the existing apps largely do run on other Linux systems via waydroid, and that 2. apps refusing to run on non-stock systems are likely to refuse GOS as well.

If I cut down your page of text to the relevant points, I believe it amounts to:

1. GOS has better app compatibility than waydroid.

2. GOS is supported by some apps that would refuse other non-stock systems.

3. GOS is more secure/private. (This is unrelated and should at most have been a reply to the root comment.)

On 1. compatibility, yes you're probably ahead, though I have to question how much since waydroid is also 90% AOSP. Somewhat similarly on 2. yes GOS has gotten some buy-in, but if 90% is good enough, then again you shouldn't be holding up compatibility as your advantage over waydroid. Basically, either users want 100% app compat - in which case GOS is out - or they don't, in which case waydroid is likely to be an option. Point 3. is irrelevant to the conversation, and you probably don't want to start an argument about general features since GOS is missing vitally important features compared to other Android ROMs let alone "normal" Linux systems (how long has GOS been without full backup functionality now?).

> We've also had to actively convince apps to stop banning non-Google-certified operating systems or to permit GrapheneOS and other secure options alongside doing it.

What other secure options are those?

Re: Devices with GrapheneOS support should be available in 2027

#318

Post by qlte »

tfrancisl wrote: post #251
Gander5739 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AOSP is only more "secure" because, on some devices like Pixels, it exploits hardware features typically not found on general purpose computers. You don't think, say, isolating apps has anything to do with it?

Why are we acting like isolating software is impossible on Linux? It isnt even difficult, there are about a dozen different models to choose from.

AOSP security model relies on an extremely restrictive SELinux config out-of-the-box (that importantly also doesn't impede normal phone/app usage), with the kernel hardened about as much as any cutting edge Linux distro could offer from upstream, plus features that haven't been upstreamed yet (and again, completely transparently to the user).

Re: Devices with GrapheneOS support should be available in 2027

#319

Post by rh94 »

shaky-carrousel wrote: post #82
rh94 wrote: post #81

Anyone has any idea if this changes current situation with nfc payments? Currently many banking apps do not work, and google pay is just unavailable, to my understanding it was related to secure chip on phone - as graphene wasnt "stocked" android os approved by google, i dearly hope this chnages with motorola

I have a GrapheneOS phone and I pay with Curve.

I had plenty of troubles with curve, garmine watches is alternative, but fingers crossed that motorola phones works better

Re: Devices with GrapheneOS support should be available in 2027

#320

Post by Cider9986 »

grapheneos wrote: post #311
Pfhortune wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GrapheneOS on a flip is my dream. I tried with the ZFlips a couple of times but Samsung's kitchen-sink approach is just not for me.

We should be able to support the next generation of the Razr Ultra. It will take longer for the lower end devices to meet our requirements for updates and hardware-based security features. We think folding devices are a lot more useful and likely to get more users but we already have those via Pixels so flip devices are compelling as a new form factor. We're also interested in having support for new tablets.

I hope flipping devices sell well enough to continue being released because I think they are the best solution for the small phone people.

I've never really tried a flip but it does sound cool.

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