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As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

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Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#111

Post by kvuj »

jeroenhd wrote: post #97
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #51

Counterpoint: as a Mac user it is surreal to click Next Next Next to install a program on Windows. Same for uninstalling. Move to Trash and poof, unistalled. There is no standard way to install stuff, so neither MacOS nor Windows deviates from something. For all the bickering about it here in the comments, no one proposed an “ideal” solution to install a program on Mac.

> Same for uninstalling. Move to Trash and poof, unistalled. That removes most of the program files, but there is no chance for the program to run any cleanup process in the mean time. Library Support, .cache, and all other kinds of remnants remain and have no way of getting cleaned up without manual user intervention. It's like hunting down broken uninstaller files in Windows 98 all over again. The places that need…

Isn't it the same for Windows? There have been countless programs throughout the years that I've uninstalled and saw remnant folders in %appdata%, Documents folder, Program Files folder with only 2 remaining files inside, sometimes even hidden folders by default.

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#112

Post by pletnes »

frollogaston wrote: post #87
pletnes wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows uninstall scripts often do the same. Some have an option of removing data files, some just leave them behind. I don’t have any statistics but I see no reason to believe the situation is any «better» on windows. Also, I am sure people will disagree on whether it is better to remove data files or leave them.

Not surprising, but at least devs are given a clear way to behave well if they want. I do think all desktop operating systems were overly loose with apps touching files, though.

Also, desktop app devs tend to touch files in a myriad places that you’d never expect. The os can never solve that anyway.

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#113

Post by orphea »

kvuj wrote: post #111
jeroenhd wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same for uninstalling. Move to Trash and poof, unistalled. That removes most of the program files, but there is no chance for the program to run any cleanup process in the mean time. Library Support, .cache, and all other kinds of remnants remain and have no way of getting cleaned up without manual user intervention. It's like hunting down broken uninstaller files in Windows 98 all over again. The places that need…

Isn't it the same for Windows? There have been countless programs throughout the years that I've uninstalled and saw remnant folders in %appdata%, Documents folder, Program Files folder with only 2 remaining files inside, sometimes even hidden folders by default.

> Isn't it the same for Windows?

Sometimes. Many apps do clean up after themselves.

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#115

Post by dgellow »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #51

Counterpoint: as a Mac user it is surreal to click Next Next Next to install a program on Windows. Same for uninstalling. Move to Trash and poof, unistalled. There is no standard way to install stuff, so neither MacOS nor Windows deviates from something. For all the bickering about it here in the comments, no one proposed an “ideal” solution to install a program on Mac.

I don’t believe they meant surreal in a negative way

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#116

Post by lapcat »

stevekerr wrote: post #17

Why not .pkg (next, next, installer)? For the past week, I've been tweaking my startup's CLI to install as a .pkg, satisfy Apple signing, and everything that goes along with that. I've often wondered why so many companies opt for the icon method.

> install as a .pkg, satisfy Apple signing

Keep in mind that a package installer becomes obsolete and nonfunctional when the code signing certificate expires, unlike an app.

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#117

Post by ffsm8 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #108
pavlov wrote: post #94

I think the most confusing concept in this process for new users is the shortcut inside the disk image because it breaks the isolation metaphor. So, you download a file, and it's something called an "image" which opens in Finder like you'd inserted an external thumb drive. Fine. You open the image, and inside is... Your own Applications folder? Wait, how can the file I downloaded contain all of my apps? This kind of…

There's a tiny little arrow in the corner to indicate that it's a shortcut. But this really confused me when I first started using macOS as well. You're just expected to know that the applications folder in the disk image you just downloaded isn't actually inside of the disk image. When I first opened a .dmg, I thought the arrow symbolised some kind of progress bar and waited for a moment to let it do its installatio…

i actually vividly remember when they started introducing that flow... the first time i came across it was a total knee-jerk negative reaction. unrelated to that, i switched to windows a few years later (my old imac wasnt good enough to play world of warcraft)... but when i came back to it 10+ years later, it still felt strange.

i mean its neat from a minimalism perspective, but the decision to not ship with a regular installation UI in OG macOS X came with the tradeoff of not cleanly _uninstalling_ software either. config files etc were always left over.

but i guess - as Apple keeps locking down good old macOS X in favour of forcing software to go through the Apple Store this is going away as a sideeffect?

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#118

Post by kikimora »

stevekerr wrote: post #17

Why not .pkg (next, next, installer)? For the past week, I've been tweaking my startup's CLI to install as a .pkg, satisfy Apple signing, and everything that goes along with that. I've often wondered why so many companies opt for the icon method.

I like drag&drop way more than .pkg. just easier to deal with. If you do a CLI tool then maybe `brew install CLI` is the way to go instead of a pkg file?

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#119

Post by jemmyw »

ffsm8 wrote: post #117
jeroenhd wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a tiny little arrow in the corner to indicate that it's a shortcut. But this really confused me when I first started using macOS as well. You're just expected to know that the applications folder in the disk image you just downloaded isn't actually inside of the disk image. When I first opened a .dmg, I thought the arrow symbolised some kind of progress bar and waited for a moment to let it do its installatio…

i actually vividly remember when they started introducing that flow... the first time i came across it was a total knee-jerk negative reaction. unrelated to that, i switched to windows a few years later (my old imac wasnt good enough to play world of warcraft)... but when i came back to it 10+ years later, it still felt strange. i mean its neat from a minimalism perspective, but the decision to not ship with a regula…

They haven't made any more moves in that direction since the store appeared. If anything, it's use seems to have declined since then. For awhile I would download a few apps from there, but when I did a fresh install this year I didn't even think about it and got nothing from there.

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#120

Post by wpm »

jocoda wrote: post #50

FYI - You don't have to drag the app to the applications folder in the install window. You can drag the app to a different location. I have an entry level mini 8GB/255 GB SSD with 1TB external SSD. Everything goes on the external. There are only a handful of apps that insist on being installed in the system Application folder. Even had xCode running on the external. Uninstalling is supposed to be as simple as moving…

Uninstalling has the same issue on every OS because the OS isn't keeping a log of every file an application creates over its lifetime being installed; it can only remove what it knows about.
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