How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise • Hacker News Board

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#111

Post by exceptione » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 10:21 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #93

exceptione wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> capitalism vs. socialism One thing I learned from observing the Americans is how tainted the concept of socialism has become in their discourse. I have a hunch there has been some cultural engineering behind this, but reasons aside, the confusion is unfortunate. I learned that when an American talks about socialism, they usually mean communism and often the accompanying dictatorships that enable this oppressive sys…

> I have a hunch there has been some cultural engineering behind this, but reasons aside, the confusion is unfortunate. Yes, it's literally the result of decades of CIA Cold War propaganda, often using conservative Christianity and preachers like Billy Graham (who was funded by the CIA) to scare people into believing communism was literally satanic in nature. Most of American pop culture, media culture and even most…

  > believing communism was literally satanic in nature.

Well, he might have had some point there. The repression against the church was real and heavy in the Russian occupied territories. Especially the youth was targeted, membership of a christian youth organization was enough reason to fire you, to block you from pursuing an education or anything else to participate in society, with lasting consequences. To this day and age, the former DDR (controlled by the Russians) has left its legacy in vastly higher figures in atheism. The barbarism, cruelty and contempt for humans by both communist China and Russia have managed to surpass even the nazi's, and we don't want either of these systems ever on this planet again.

  > Americans are more controlled than North Koreans and they don't even realize it.

I assume you mean that as hyperbole. Yes, the cultural engineering is heavy, and understandably, people are not aware of it, but North Korea is in an entirely different league.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#112

Post by exceptione » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 10:31 PM UTC

nec4b wrote: post #110

exceptione wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> capitalism vs. socialism One thing I learned from observing the Americans is how tainted the concept of socialism has become in their discourse. I have a hunch there has been some cultural engineering behind this, but reasons aside, the confusion is unfortunate. I learned that when an American talks about socialism, they usually mean communism and often the accompanying dictatorships that enable this oppressive sys…

>Meanwhile, the social-democratic countries... Which don't have anything in common with socialist countries. https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/denmark-tells-...

In my country, no socialist is calling for abandoning the market economy. There are like 14 confused teenagers however, who call themselves communists. The various socialists might give different answers about the question of what things are the responsibility for the government, like public transport.

Lots of social democratic parties are united in the Socialist International.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#113

Post by klatchex_too » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 11:15 PM UTC

sph wrote: post #33

“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” — John Steinbeck, still as relevant as ever

>> “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”

Steinbeck never said or wrote that, as far as I can tell.

He did write a passage that maybe was paraphrased that way, but let's be clear here, he was talking about Communism, and revolutionary Communism, not socialism:

"Except for the field organizers of strikes, who were pretty tough monkeys and devoted, most of the so-called Communists I met were middle-class, middle-aged people playing a game of dreams. I remember a woman in easy circumstances saying to another even more affluent: “After the revolution even we will have more, won’t we, dear?” Then there was another lover of proletarians who used to raise hell with Sunday picnickers on her property.

I guess the trouble was that we didn’t have any self-admitted proletarians. Everyone was a temporarily embarrassed capitalist. Maybe the Communists so closely questioned by the investigation committees were a danger to America, but the ones I knew — at least they claimed to be Communists — couldn’t have disrupted a Sunday-school picnic. Besides they were too busy fighting among themselves."

Steinbeck was a communist in the 1930s, he belonged to a communist organization and wrote for a communist publication. He wrote the above passage in the 1960s looking back on that period. To me it seems like he is trying to minimize his participation in revolutionary communism, as one would naturally do in the 1960s. Maybe I'm overly skeptical and he just grew up.

He did not write or say what you quoted him as saying.

Looks like the definition of "proletarian" is a member of "the class of industrial workers who lack their own means of production and hence sell their labor to live". I did that for some time, retired now. Don't know what about that category of person means they are expected to support communism.

I don't.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#114

Post by preg_match » Fri, Aug 07, 2026, 2:05 AM UTC

DamonHD wrote: post #15

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which the US has anyway, albeit in a patchier form than other countries, and with welfare handed out more to corporations and "sponsors" than individuals.

I don't see how a shared currency (between poor and rich states, with the subsidy flows that implies), a national air-traffic control system and the interstates, amongst many other features, are not "socialism".

To be fair, if any of those were proposed today, Republicans would absolutely lose their minds and it would never pass. Basically everything somewhat "good" about the US comes from vaguely-socialist policy making in the 20th century. Nobody will say it out loud, but we all know it's true. Living in America if the New Deal never happened would be absolutely miserable.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#115

Post by bean469 » Fri, Aug 07, 2026, 6:01 AM UTC

FromHoiPolloi wrote: post #81

bean469 wrote: post #6

Socialism is when the government does stuff

All governments do stuff. Usually it's passing and enforcing laws. What set of principals stands (or lurks) behind these laws - that's where the meat of the matter is.

I completely agree with you. It was a satirical nod to the quote from Richard D. Wolff

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#116

Post by tstrimple » Fri, Aug 07, 2026, 7:49 AM UTC

pickleglitch wrote: post #79

ozlikethewizard wrote: post #65

Regardless of your actual views on the systems, as a non-american it's absolutely insane that so many people are incapable of thinking of one positive of a socialist economic system. I wouldn't describe myself as either a socialist or a capatalist, but with just a cursory ponder I can think of several benefits to both. The complete inability for critical thinking is quite saddening, and quite worrying considering ame…

I'm convinced most Americans have no idea what socialism means, or even what capitalism means.

Socialism is when the government does things I don't like. It's really not more complicated than that. People stating these things are some of the most ignorant in modern humanity. But they also represent like a third of the population in the US as depressing as that is. They are literally why we cannot have nice things.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#117

Post by tstrimple » Fri, Aug 07, 2026, 7:52 AM UTC

ocius wrote: post #71

anthony_d wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I like the suggestion, but it’s firmly on the capitalism end of the spectrum. Profit sharing is one of the incentives I look at when looking for a job. Not too far off from employee stock programs or matching 401k with company stock. If you had suggested the “public” get a share of the profits then you start touching socialism but then I’d also hate the suggestion.

The public already gets its share via taxes, I'd argue, the problem that I see right now is really that the wins for the employees are (usually) limited to their salary, whereas owners get everything that's left over. And the more you already have, the more you are able to gain..

> The public already gets its share via taxes,

You need to demonstrate this with receipts. Most of what I see are large corporations getting tax breaks regardless of job or wealth creation within an area. The idea that the public is offset by taxes on corporations is quite fucking ridiculous to anyone who pays any attention to what effective rates corporations pay.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#118

Post by jjav » Fri, Aug 07, 2026, 8:27 AM UTC

rawgabbit wrote: post #107

ozlikethewizard wrote: post #65

Regardless of your actual views on the systems, as a non-american it's absolutely insane that so many people are incapable of thinking of one positive of a socialist economic system. I wouldn't describe myself as either a socialist or a capatalist, but with just a cursory ponder I can think of several benefits to both. The complete inability for critical thinking is quite saddening, and quite worrying considering ame…

Words in American politics have lost their original meaning. Words in American politics mean whatever the national committee say they mean for that week. Communism means everyone who opposes Trump. Freedom means parroting whatever nonsense Trump says today. Socialism means everyone who rejects the current corporate oligarchs.

> Freedom means parroting whatever nonsense Trump says today.

But even more contradictorily, to them "freedom" means violently eliminating all freedoms (of press, assembly, protest, personal liberties) that don't align with worshipping the current president.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#119

Post by jjav » Fri, Aug 07, 2026, 8:33 AM UTC

ifwinterco wrote: post #49

nostrademons wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes me wonder how many of the complaints about capitalism are really about corruption , and if people would have a more favorable view of it if we didn't have this system of interlocking directorships, revolving public/private appointments, regulatory capture, and backroom handshakes between government and corporations that seems to shut many Americans out of the capitalist wealth-creation engine.

The US is not really capitalist, it’s an oligarchy - a small number of people like Larry Ellison essentially control everything. It’s always been like that, even going back to the 19th century and the robber barons of the gilded age

> The US is not really capitalist, it’s an oligarchy - a small number of people like Larry Ellison essentially control everything.

This oligarchy is the inevitable conclusion of capitalism, unless there are regulations in place to preserve competition. The last time the US had significant enforcement in this area was the early 80s (AT&T), so of course we have an oligarchy.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#120

Post by mytailorisrich » Fri, Aug 07, 2026, 12:34 PM UTC

ozlikethewizard wrote: post #100

mytailorisrich wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I think is "absolutely insane" is how oblivious of recent history people are. Up until the 1980s half of Europe was socialist, and it is at that time that China started moving away from a socialist economy, too. It was abandoned everywhere.

Not entirely sure what that has to do with what I was saying? Unless you're trying to provide an example of a lack of critical thinking? China is an excellent example, while they have moved to a state managed capitalist market style economy now (one in which you get the best of both worlds, the average person is ground under the wheels of capitalism at the direction of the state), their flavour of socialism was incre…

The point is that they became effective when they abandoned socialism as the economic doctrine. So there is no such thing as "their flavour of socialism". The 20th century showed that socialism does not work and fails dramatically.

As for healthcare, unfortunately that has been a collateral victim of this. Benefits used to be tied to the "work unit" in a very traditional socialist style (soviet, commune, etc) but this disappeared when socialism was abandoned and now either you can pay or you die.