Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

news.gallup.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 122 posts

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#71

Post by ocius »

anthony_d wrote: post #62
ocius wrote: post #55

Most such discussion suffer from an inadequate definition of what is meant by "socialism" vs what is meant by "capitalism". The most important aspect to me is ownership / control of the means of production, and I think there are very interesting compromises to be had in between extremes. What I mean: imagine if it was normal for companies to pay out a large part of their earnings to their employees. This does exist,…

I think I like the suggestion, but it’s firmly on the capitalism end of the spectrum. Profit sharing is one of the incentives I look at when looking for a job. Not too far off from employee stock programs or matching 401k with company stock. If you had suggested the “public” get a share of the profits then you start touching socialism but then I’d also hate the suggestion.

The public already gets its share via taxes, I'd argue, the problem that I see right now is really that the wins for the employees are (usually) limited to their salary, whereas owners get everything that's left over. And the more you already have, the more you are able to gain..

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#72

Post by lotsofpulp »

anthony_d wrote: post #62
ocius wrote: post #55

Most such discussion suffer from an inadequate definition of what is meant by "socialism" vs what is meant by "capitalism". The most important aspect to me is ownership / control of the means of production, and I think there are very interesting compromises to be had in between extremes. What I mean: imagine if it was normal for companies to pay out a large part of their earnings to their employees. This does exist,…

I think I like the suggestion, but it’s firmly on the capitalism end of the spectrum. Profit sharing is one of the incentives I look at when looking for a job. Not too far off from employee stock programs or matching 401k with company stock. If you had suggested the “public” get a share of the profits then you start touching socialism but then I’d also hate the suggestion.

I would bet for most people, employee stock programs or company stock will provide far lower and more volatile return than an SP500 index fund. The US public has long been able to benefit from profit sharing, all they have to do is by a low cost broad market index fund.

The root of the problem is that the labor that most people in the US sell is not in sufficiently high demand to afford them the compensation to be able to afford the lifestyle they expect, since they are competing with the rest of the world willing to do it for less.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#73

Post by hellisothers »

Bjartr wrote: post #48
nostrademons wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes me wonder how many of the complaints about capitalism are really about corruption , and if people would have a more favorable view of it if we didn't have this system of interlocking directorships, revolving public/private appointments, regulatory capture, and backroom handshakes between government and corporations that seems to shut many Americans out of the capitalist wealth-creation engine.

I think part of it is that it can be argued that benefitting from such corruption within the system is itself a capitalistic action and therefore justifiable from within. Pursuing regulatory capture is just one action of many for maximizing shareholder value, to the point that not doing so is arguably a failure of leadership. At least to some. (To be clear, I disagree with this in principle)

But are either of these Capitalism? Sure they’re capitalist in the way the world works but the OP is touching on ideals and theory.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#74

Post by dzonga »

simianwords wrote: post #41
dzonga wrote: post #21

some of these media outlets manipulate public opinion. majority of the public can't differentiate between commerce & capitalism. nor socialism vs 'free markets'. the non-gullible people know it's not just about this vs that - but ultimately who controls what. ideally you want a system where no individual player or a few players can tip the system. the Chinese system is probably the closest to that - but then the CCP…

> the non-gullible people know it's not just about this vs that - but ultimately who controls what. ideally you want a system where no individual player or a few players can tip the system. forgive me for asking but even if I accept China is a real democracy, how is that meaningfully different from "no individual player or a few players can tip the system". isn't Xi and the other party members capable of doing exactl…

I'm not talking about democracy - but a 'permission' system.

In the west - you've to be 'blessed' to become an economic player - there's the myth of competition (but someone has to bless that competition) - whereas in the Chinese economy there's no favored party - BYD isn't favored more by the gvt because it's large anymore than the small upstart that's making electric cars.

> isn't Xi and the other party members capable of doing exactly this? - hence I said the CPC can tip the scales once in a while but in terms of free market competition the Chinese economy is more 'free'

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#75

Post by ocius »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #72
anthony_d wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I like the suggestion, but it’s firmly on the capitalism end of the spectrum. Profit sharing is one of the incentives I look at when looking for a job. Not too far off from employee stock programs or matching 401k with company stock. If you had suggested the “public” get a share of the profits then you start touching socialism but then I’d also hate the suggestion.

I would bet for most people, employee stock programs or company stock will provide far lower and more volatile return than an SP500 index fund. The US public has long been able to benefit from profit sharing, all they have to do is by a low cost broad market index fund. The root of the problem is that the labor that most people in the US sell is not in sufficiently high demand to afford them the compensation to be ab…

Regarding the first point: owners typically pay themselves a salary in addition to owning the company and thus benefit from both. Employees do not have this advantage.

The two problems are not mutually exclusive, and certainly unskilled labour is a significant problem for a good fraction of the population; but if this were the only problem, then we wouldn't see the amount of wealth concentration and decoupling of productivity from income that we observe.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#76

Post by phs318u »

soco wrote: post #58
vintermann wrote: post #12

It's not always clear who controls the means of production. It certainly isn't always the people who formally is supposed to - whether we're talking about a "capitalist" or "socialist" government.

Reality check: the workers never control the means of production. Not even in communist states, not even in China. On paper? Sure, paper is forgiving. But the oligarchy, either by party or by money, does what they want. The only enclaves where the workers own it is in small cooperatives (mostly insignificant).

I always thought that those that can deny something control it. The workers, by withdrawing their labour, have effective control. However it’s rarely exercised and I think that’s partly because of lack of belief that it’s true.

These days of course, workers’ days are numbered as automation will eventually make them extinct.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#77

Post by oblongdefeat »

TrackerFF wrote: post #47

The problem in the US, is that historically all flavors of socialism have been painted the same way as communism. So in the end it has been capitalism vs socialism, no room in the middle. And whenever countries with social democratic systems, or in general countries with strong socialist influences are presented to the public, the billionaire-pundits scramble to downplay their living standards. Take this world cup, f…

The funny part is that the era commonly referred to as "the golden age of capitalism" (post New Deal, post WWII) in the US is the period of time where it was the most "socialist".

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#78

Post by vintermann »

phs318u wrote: post #76
soco wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reality check: the workers never control the means of production. Not even in communist states, not even in China. On paper? Sure, paper is forgiving. But the oligarchy, either by party or by money, does what they want. The only enclaves where the workers own it is in small cooperatives (mostly insignificant).

I always thought that those that can deny something control it. The workers, by withdrawing their labour, have effective control. However it’s rarely exercised and I think that’s partly because of lack of belief that it’s true. These days of course, workers’ days are numbered as automation will eventually make them extinct.

It's not just lack of belief, it's a coordination problem.

Just because we admit to ourselves that it probably won't end well if we keep allowing the powerful to use their power to get ever more power, for us personally it can be profitable to go along with it. Or too risky to go against it.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#79

Post by pickleglitch »

ozlikethewizard wrote: post #65

Regardless of your actual views on the systems, as a non-american it's absolutely insane that so many people are incapable of thinking of one positive of a socialist economic system. I wouldn't describe myself as either a socialist or a capatalist, but with just a cursory ponder I can think of several benefits to both. The complete inability for critical thinking is quite saddening, and quite worrying considering ame…

I'm convinced most Americans have no idea what socialism means, or even what capitalism means.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#80

Post by soco »

vintermann wrote: post #78
phs318u wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that those that can deny something control it. The workers, by withdrawing their labour, have effective control. However it’s rarely exercised and I think that’s partly because of lack of belief that it’s true. These days of course, workers’ days are numbered as automation will eventually make them extinct.

It's not just lack of belief, it's a coordination problem. Just because we admit to ourselves that it probably won't end well if we keep allowing the powerful to use their power to get ever more power, for us personally it can be profitable to go along with it. Or too risky to go against it.

The "iron law of oligarchy" (Robert Michels) says that any large organizations will be controlled by a small organized leadership - so the organized minority will control it.
Post reply on HN