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Read the novels and forget everything else

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Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#81

Post by SiempreViernes »

altmanaltman wrote: post #41
tclancy wrote: post #16

He is a completely flawed man. The books are borderline flawless (will admit when I reread them now I skip the last 2 or 3 because he clearly felt the creep of time and started killing off characters I loved deeply). >O’Brian as “an artificer” whose work lacked the “frisson” one finds “in the presence of creative greatness” Absolutely zero idea what that even means. The books are wonderful as escapist superhero stuff…

I think the article is not doing a good job quoting the person who said that. You can more here and most of what she says is actually in appreciation of the work itself. > It might well be argued that if the 20 volumes of the Aubrey-Maturin cycle were to be telescoped into one book, it really would rival War and Peace as a supremely grand historical novel. O'Brian's attention to detail is astonishing, his invention n…

Cutting twenty volumes down into a single, good, book would be a pretty superhuman feat of editing though and certainly not something that can be counted on to happen easily or at all.

In other words, the claim is essentially "I can imagine parts of this series appearing in one really good book".

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#82

Post by squigz »

ridgeguy wrote: post #18

Sometime in the mid-90s, after I'd read M&C and the two following books, I heard Patrick O’Brian interviewed on the radio as I was driving to work in Sunnyvale. The interview included about 20 minutes of his reading from M&C. After listening to him read for about 30 seconds, I pulled onto the shoulder of 101 around Ames lab, shut down my car and just listened to him. I'd never before heard someone give voice to the E…

> Maybe I should look into training an AI in the audio style of Patrick O’Brian and have it read Shakespeare for me.

This bothered me in ways I cannot currently put into words.

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#83

Post by ComputerPerson »

jimnotgym wrote: post #69
ComputerPerson wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read Master and Commander and likely never will after reading this article. I couldn't get over the bad taste in my mouth I don't think. Fortunate for you to have read the book before the article. Too many good novels that weren't written by dispicable people.

Really, the article referenced a few snippets of information, none of which is new. Its like the press only knew 5 things about him and they were all bad, so keep going. I can't bring myself to be so judgemental. He once lost his temper in a restaurant, he left his wife (and maybe she was lovely, maybe she did something terrible), he wrote under an assumed name (and the point?). Which one triggered you? Is hardly a c…

I greatly enjoy the pastime of understanding the various takes on the personal lives of artists. Many are quite pleasant humans. I read novels on the subject. "the private lives of the impressionists" by Sue Roe is a fantastic read. I came out of it with a passion for Renoir.

To answer your direct question, I find abandoning a fatally-ill child to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Take a look at the quote from the article in the top comment. He admits himself that the journalism is only the surface of his awful character.

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#84

Post by bryanrasmussen »

vvbull wrote: post #59
defen wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a mistake to dismiss them just for that reason. He's been dead for 26 years, and you can get the books second-hand, so it's easy to acquire them while ensuring no money goes to him or his estate if that's what you're worried about. They're an absolutely fantastic set of novels, full of joy and adventure and excitement and humor and astonishing erudition.. Tom Stoppard admired him (as mentioned in the art…

If I can find more media than I could ever possibly consume that a) I'll love to death, b) has a fan community who loves it with me, and c) is written by authors I don't viscerally reject, why would I ever compromise on those? Vanishingly few works are so good, so life altering, that I'd need to set aside my qualms with the author to read them. Like, I'm sure master and commander is a fine series of books. I'm sure i…

>c) is written by authors I don't viscerally reject, why would I ever compromise on those?

just curious, but how much research do you put into the background of any author to determine if their moral status matches with your requirements?

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#85

Post by tclancy »

jimnotgym wrote: post #70
idontwantthis wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also recognized Jack’s incredible management skills! He knows exactly how to get the best work out of people and especially how to correct them without making them feel inferior or resentful.

This element of Jack very much comes from his admiration of Nelson. If you are interested in management at all, Nelson's style of leadership was ground-breaking. Whereas Jack's feats trials and tribulations very much come from Cochrane. Almost verbatim. Nelson and Cochrane were true heroes, the finest. Ant yet both had very visible flaws of character. I personally admire their achievements more than we criticise thei…

Well Jack is great, but surely not in the same level. Nelson could do it all with one arm behind his back.

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#86

Post by tclancy »

wahern wrote: post #43
ekelsen wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the quoted sentence is basically saying his work is workman like and doesn't cause the chills that reading something truly great does. (I don't agree)

I think she's betraying that her knowledge of his personal character colors her interpretation and experience of his work: > Why, then, does his work not give me the ultimate frisson I get when I feel I am in the presence of creative greatness, and which constantly moves me as I read the pages of Leo Tolstoy? I think it is because in Tolstoy I know I am confronting fundamental truths, expressed in fiction that has gr…

It’s that last line though. All three sound like uncharitable descriptions of the literal job of a fiction author. And all three have implied or explicit negative connotations.

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#87

Post by tclancy »

idontwantthis wrote: post #39
tclancy wrote: post #16

He is a completely flawed man. The books are borderline flawless (will admit when I reread them now I skip the last 2 or 3 because he clearly felt the creep of time and started killing off characters I loved deeply). >O’Brian as “an artificer” whose work lacked the “frisson” one finds “in the presence of creative greatness” Absolutely zero idea what that even means. The books are wonderful as escapist superhero stuff…

I also recognized Jack’s incredible management skills! He knows exactly how to get the best work out of people and especially how to correct them without making them feel inferior or resentful.

And what he has in someone like Pullings as the details/ implementation man for Jack’s C-suite visions.

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#88

Post by kombookcha »

squigz wrote: post #82
ridgeguy wrote: post #18

Sometime in the mid-90s, after I'd read M&C and the two following books, I heard Patrick O’Brian interviewed on the radio as I was driving to work in Sunnyvale. The interview included about 20 minutes of his reading from M&C. After listening to him read for about 30 seconds, I pulled onto the shoulder of 101 around Ames lab, shut down my car and just listened to him. I'd never before heard someone give voice to the E…

> Maybe I should look into training an AI in the audio style of Patrick O’Brian and have it read Shakespeare for me. This bothered me in ways I cannot currently put into words.

Such an abrupt, visceral sense of revulsion after an otherwise pleasant anecdote. Like finding a used band-aid at the bottom of your plate of comfy stew.

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#89

Post by delis-thumbs-7e »

colinb wrote: post #79
delis-thumbs-7e wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are doing is not maturity, but compartmentalisation. If you simply refuse to hear a single piece of evidence of, say, Michael Jackson’s pedophilia, or Roman Polanski’s repeated rape accusations, you are choosing willful ignorance, especially since often the artist’s status and fame make their criminal behaviour possible and provides them shelter from prosecution. I myself am far from innocent of this. For mo…

I too thought of Polanski (Roman, not Zac) while reading these threads. I’m not sure the comparison or perhaps, the parallel holds though. PO’b may have been a bad husband. Or he may have been married to a bad wife. Or maybe they were both a bit rough. I don’t know an any real evidence either way, and life has taught me that it’s hard to see inside the truth of other people’s relationships. I have trouble enough with…

I hoped it obvious that I am not comparing being a liar and a bad family man to being a serial rapist (unsurprisingly there is quite few allegations of this exact same behaviour against Polanski). I simply used Polanski and MJ as obvious examples of A) why not separating the art and artist absolutely is not just “immature virtue signaling” B) how people loving the art are able to compartmentalise the evidence and suffering of the victims to keep enjoying the art, meanwhile making any justice very difficult.

There’s artist with whom we can “forget everything else”, then there’s not. Where one draws the line, well, I suppose that up to one’s own discretion, but I would recommend offering a serious thought on where oneself draws the line.

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#90

Post by colinb »

delis-thumbs-7e wrote: post #89
colinb wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too thought of Polanski (Roman, not Zac) while reading these threads. I’m not sure the comparison or perhaps, the parallel holds though. PO’b may have been a bad husband. Or he may have been married to a bad wife. Or maybe they were both a bit rough. I don’t know an any real evidence either way, and life has taught me that it’s hard to see inside the truth of other people’s relationships. I have trouble enough with…

I hoped it obvious that I am not comparing being a liar and a bad family man to being a serial rapist (unsurprisingly there is quite few allegations of this exact same behaviour against Polanski). I simply used Polanski and MJ as obvious examples of A) why not separating the art and artist absolutely is not just “immature virtue signaling” B) how people loving the art are able to compartmentalise the evidence and suf…

ah, my apologies. I read more than you wrote. I think you and I are probably more in agreement than not. I read a book last year, "Monsters: What Do We Do with Great Art by Bad People" by Claire Dederer, on this topic. Good in parts. Left me hanging. She talks a lot about several probably bad people, Polanski, Woody Allen, Picasso etc. But she never seems to hit a conclusion. Maybe that's the answer; there is no easy, pat answer. You just have to push through each case, as you find it, according to your judgement at the time.

While writing this, I dug out a Reddit thread about the book, where one of the participants (YakSlothLemon FTW!) hits us with Wagner. Well, yes, game over. I'm not a fan of that sort of (to my ears) overcooked opera, but if you like it, play it. The dirtbag isn't getting any royalties because he's good and dead.

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