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Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

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Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#131

Post by nateb2022 »

Freak_NL wrote: post #75
lelanthran wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

> That's clearly already a child and I will object. Not your body, not your choice. Late stage abortions in order to protect the live of the pregnant woman happen. Unviable pregnancies happen. You know what happens in countries where abortion laws are so strict that even a medical emergency will land the doctor in legal trouble? The pregnant woman dies during or before childbirth. > Hang on, how is listening to the h…

> Not your body, not your choice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

> unscientific view of pregnancy

As of 2018, a study found that 95% of all biologists affirm the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization.

> being a child rather than a lump of cells

A child is an individual organism of the species Homo sapiens. Since the majority of biologists (who are the de facto subject matter experts here) affirm that human life begins at fertilization, your opinion is patently unscientific.

You may argue, as some do, that there are cases, including abortion, where it is permissible to take a human life, however your opinion as expressed is in fact unscientific, and I would encourage you to question the cogency of your conclusions.

[0]: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#132

Post by eigencoder »

luckydata wrote: post #77
petcat wrote: post #28

It's bizarre to me that countries in Europe can just compel their ISPs to block websites completely without any judicial review. That kind of thing would run afoul of all kinds of first amendment litigation in the US. The FBI will occasionally seize a domain, but only after a court order.

absolute freedom of speech is not a value or constitutional right in most european countries. I don't understand why americans can't get comfortable with the notion that other countries have different laws. There's plenty of things that could be considered bizarre and arbitrary in the US form the perspective of a european, I know full well being one living in California for 20 years.

I think Americans get that other countries have different laws. But freedom of speech, an ideal we lifted from European enlightenment thinkers, is so important to our culture and national mythos that it is a little surprising how differently it's valued in much of Europe.

I'm sure the culture shock goes both ways though, as you say. Curious about your perspective on the the most bizarre / arbitrary things in the US?

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#133

Post by mullingitover »

nateb2022 wrote: post #131
Freak_NL wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's clearly already a child and I will object. Not your body, not your choice. Late stage abortions in order to protect the live of the pregnant woman happen. Unviable pregnancies happen. You know what happens in countries where abortion laws are so strict that even a medical emergency will land the doctor in legal trouble? The pregnant woman dies during or before childbirth. > Hang on, how is listening to the h…

> Not your body, not your choice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question > unscientific view of pregnancy As of 2018, a study found that 95% of all biologists affirm the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization. > being a child rather than a lump of cells A child is an individual organism of the species Homo sapiens. Since the majority of biologists (who are the de facto subject matter…

Of all the debate tactics, citing a paper that is very much not in support of your view point as a trump card is certainly one of them.

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#134

Post by lelanthran »

khriss wrote: post #127
lelanthran wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clearly you believe in the primacy of preserving life. I am wondering if your belief extends to after the child is born?Clearly you believe in the primacy of preserving life. I am wondering if your belief extends to after the child is born? Are you suggesting that, because I object to abortion a day before delivery, that I must be some kind of misogynistic monster? Because that's where the line is drawn in this cur…

Really? The linked article clearly says the limit is 12 weeks. Quite a ways away from 'one day' before delivery. Also, you didn't really answer the question....

> Really? The linked article clearly says the limit is 12 weeks. Quite a ways away from 'one day' before delivery.

Please read the thread; the article is about 12 weeks, the pro-lifers in this thread are sticking to 1-day prior to delivery.

> Also, you didn't really answer the question....

Have you stopped beating your wife? Y/N?

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#135

Post by quickthrowman »

cocoto wrote: post #84
quickthrowman wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is morally opposed to abortion, they don’t need to have one. That’s where it should end, there’s no need to control the bodies of others due to a moral belief that other people don’t hold.

The whole point of the debate is that the fetus has no choice during an absorption, not some “moral” ground that you are imposing to someone else.

The fetus is inside of an adult human with a life they’re living. The decision is theirs to make, nobody else should have input, but unfortunately that isn’t the case in some places.

Someone having an abortion have zero effect on a person who is against abortion but has never met them. The anti-abortion person should mind their own business.

I don’t believe in god and think religion is generally harmful but I don’t go around campaigning to eliminate religious freedoms. I don’t tell religious people I think their beliefs are ridiculous, I keep it to myself.

Abortion wasn’t even an issue in the US until Atwater->Reagan realized there were a bunch of religious people they could manipulate into voting for the GOP by making abortion a wedge issue.

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#136

Post by Freak_NL »

nateb2022 wrote: post #131
Freak_NL wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's clearly already a child and I will object. Not your body, not your choice. Late stage abortions in order to protect the live of the pregnant woman happen. Unviable pregnancies happen. You know what happens in countries where abortion laws are so strict that even a medical emergency will land the doctor in legal trouble? The pregnant woman dies during or before childbirth. > Hang on, how is listening to the h…

> Not your body, not your choice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question > unscientific view of pregnancy As of 2018, a study found that 95% of all biologists affirm the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization. > being a child rather than a lump of cells A child is an individual organism of the species Homo sapiens. Since the majority of biologists (who are the de facto subject matter…

Ah yes, conception. The magical moment a body gets 'ensouled'. Wanting to protect literal embryos is considered a rather extreme view outside of Gilead though.

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#137

Post by nateb2022 »

mullingitover wrote: post #133
nateb2022 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not your body, not your choice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question > unscientific view of pregnancy As of 2018, a study found that 95% of all biologists affirm the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization. > being a child rather than a lump of cells A child is an individual organism of the species Homo sapiens. Since the majority of biologists (who are the de facto subject matter…

Of all the debate tactics, citing a paper that is very much not in support of your view point as a trump card is certainly one of them.

I produced a citation, you're just handwaving. Dismissing evidence simply because you find the conclusion inconvenient is telling.

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#138

Post by nateb2022 »

Freak_NL wrote: post #136
nateb2022 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not your body, not your choice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question > unscientific view of pregnancy As of 2018, a study found that 95% of all biologists affirm the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization. > being a child rather than a lump of cells A child is an individual organism of the species Homo sapiens. Since the majority of biologists (who are the de facto subject matter…

Ah yes, conception. The magical moment a body gets 'ensouled'. Wanting to protect literal embryos is considered a rather extreme view outside of Gilead though.

Convenient strawman, but you're the one bringing "Gilead" into this discussion. My argument is scientific, and I would appreciate it if your counterargument was too.

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#139

Post by mullingitover »

nateb2022 wrote: post #137
mullingitover wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all the debate tactics, citing a paper that is very much not in support of your view point as a trump card is certainly one of them.

I produced a citation, you're just handwaving. Dismissing evidence simply because you find the conclusion inconvenient is telling.

The whole point of this paper you're citing is that the scientific definition isn't relevant to the ethical debate.

You're taking this paper and saying "Aha! See but the scientific definition (which the paper points out is irrelevant) agrees with me!"

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#140

Post by altern8 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #102
kamma4434 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2022 there were about 65k abortions in Italy, two thirds of which were with ru486. All of them completely legal and paid for by the national health care. Not sure there is a need for pills over mail.

It's great Italy it has the protections it does, but as long as there are practitioners or institutions that might not respect obtaining this healthcare (out of religion, belief system, whatever, the reason is irrelevant), there should be robust systems to avoid those challenges for those seeking said healthcare. Pills available by mail on demand, automated vending machines, etc. As mentioned in the 1983 film "WarGam…

Do you realize that abortion pills are potentially dangerous..? That's why you have doctors prescribing drugs
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