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Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

citizens-initiative.europa.eu

91–100 of 313 posts

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#91
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t need IRL identity, you just need persistent reputation. That reputation can be attached to a pseudonymous identity or an IRL one. But the design of most modern social media is to detach the “content” from the context of the author. The feeds you subscribe to are funnels that channel atomized bits of content to you. Some of it may be authored by them, but it’s the platform that intermediates your relationshi…

We've moved "identity" to a few large monopolists. Who lack all incentive to properly "enforce" it. And whose interest are perpendicular to people owning their identities (being able to take them elsewhere). "Persistent" reputation won't change that. Because on the internet nothing is persistent, without a central party enforcing it to be so. And as said above, the ones in charge of it now, don't want to enforce it r…

You’re trying to engineer a social interaction. Stop that!

People remembering your handle is persistent, and people remembering if they had good or annoying interactions with you is persistent reputation that exists in the minds and interactions between different people. These are things people naturally do. If people don’t recognize your name and see it come in a trusted spot they just don’t trust you.

How tech breaks this is deprioritizes the people in the interactions. Instead of sending messages you use a “like” button to be intelligible to the platform. You don’t see the people putting stuff on your feed, it gets fed to a timeline that cuts it off from all context and atomizes it for your consumption. It’s the UI/UX that drives this. Even compare Reddit and HN with old forums. On forums like 25% of every post is just static bits of self-expression. There’s a PFP, the username is bigger, there’s often a big signature block. All of this makes the peoples’ posts feel like a person talking to you rather than text blocks that happen to have a tiny username and timestamp on it.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#92

So if i understand correctly, there's no webpage to sign this initiative yet?

You need to first provide a passport image + 5 angled selfies + bank statement + proof of employment to the Peoples Democratic European Union before you can sign.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#93

I think it's a missed opportunity to not have called it "Stop spying on every EU citizen online". It would make for great headlines and might finally wake people up when they see that the EU has rejected a proposal called that. "Stop killing the internet" unfortunately means nothing at all to the layman, they will still be using it pretty much exactly as they were before, and governments will just claim "See, interne…

And keep pushing this until it passes. Keep repeating like they do chat control.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#94
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the solution already exists, one that doesn't empower the government to do some truly heinous shit. Every power you grant the government is another knife they'll eventually stab you in the back with. Maybe you like your current government, but what about the next one, and the one after that? Instead, just use the tools you already have access to. I was not opposed when California mandated that applications add pa…

Parenting controls are shit on the end device side. It's not working, it's not even trying to. Nobody would need this blanket approach if parenting controls actually worked.

Back when smoking was more normal we basically did leave it up to Big Tobacco to determine how best to tackle underage smoking and they would literally say insane things like “Oh course we’re not targeting elementary school kids! We’re not monsters! Our advertising doesn’t hit them until they’re in 8th grade at least!”

Expecting platform monopolists and dopamine dealers to design for this is folly. They are wired to try to normalize an unhealthy level of dependence on them. Their business model is addiction.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#95
post #86

Things are far more enjoyable as a teen when it s forbidden, remember the golden age of p2p! Teens who want to see porn will be able to see porns, but they will learn somethings along the way to do so This is caricatural of course, but it s just so dumb as law as enforcing age verification "anonymously" is just like a don quichotte battle at AI era

I often joke that every technical measure that prevents teens from watching porn is a way to make teens more tech-savvy. Kids these days have it too easy, we need stronger protections or the next generation will make pathetic hackers.

> the next generation will make pathetic hackers.

"Hey ChatGPT Hacker Core Rizz Edition, can you hack this website for me?"

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#97
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've moved "identity" to a few large monopolists. Who lack all incentive to properly "enforce" it. And whose interest are perpendicular to people owning their identities (being able to take them elsewhere). "Persistent" reputation won't change that. Because on the internet nothing is persistent, without a central party enforcing it to be so. And as said above, the ones in charge of it now, don't want to enforce it r…

You’re trying to engineer a social interaction. Stop that! People remembering your handle is persistent, and people remembering if they had good or annoying interactions with you is persistent reputation that exists in the minds and interactions between different people. These are things people naturally do. If people don’t recognize your name and see it come in a trusted spot they just don’t trust you. How tech brea…

My point is that you don't own your handle. Therefore you aren't your handle.

Edit: to clarify: You aren't your handle, because it can be taken away from you, can be injected, blocked, overridden, etc.

My technical rambling then went on about how or when we can make this "handle" decentralized so it cannot be taken away from you. Hard. As proven in practice. Almost impossible.

My name is maintained by a government. It is a "handle" that could be taken away too, but is governed in lots of rules, systems and regulations. My face (an extension of my DNA, I guess) is decentralized and owned by me: its the only handle that afaik no one can take from me.

So in social interactions, you're right: reputation, bound to "me", my face, my DNA is all that matters. But online we don't have this. The closest we can probably get is "my name", controlled by governments.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#98

am i alone in wanting the internet to be killed? we’d all be better off if everyone wasn’t terminally online

When people say things like this, they mean the good parts of the internet, e.g. real people who are able to be honest because a pseudonym allows them to say things they would be punished by evildoers for saying if the evildoers could identify them. Taking that away doesn't get you out of the engagement-optimized ad funnel, it just makes that be the only thing left.

Having a digital ID does not obviate that (in principle), thanks to zero-knowledge schemes.

To my understanding then, the issue is that the EU's implementation only has a ZK-based solution in the plans so far.

But then this initiative says "No Digital ID", not "No Auto-Deanonymizable Digital ID", so...

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#99
I'm glad they mention privacy preserving and being voluntary. It's possible to make digital ID that allows selectively revealing attributes without identity, and that could solve problems like bots, socketpuppets, etc along with reasonable age-gating. It could be an ideal internet if it's properly applied. The problem is it's difficult to verify all the promises are being kept, and if they're not it instantly becomes a true dystopia. And sites could use it in inappropriate ways resulting in discrimination.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#100

I think it's a missed opportunity to not have called it "Stop spying on every EU citizen online". It would make for great headlines and might finally wake people up when they see that the EU has rejected a proposal called that. "Stop killing the internet" unfortunately means nothing at all to the layman, they will still be using it pretty much exactly as they were before, and governments will just claim "See, interne…

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