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French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

france24.com

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Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#281

Post by Arodex »

holoduke wrote: post #261
reco98gg wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason the forest is burning is global warming. There were 3 punishing heatwaves before the fire, it was just a matter of time. A part of the Fontainebleau forest, much more north, no pine trees, went in smoke earlier. Forests are burning near Madrid. It may make some people feel better to think that it is an isolated, local problem, but unfortunately global warming is the main culprit and we at least need t…

We have these fires in france since I was born in early 80s. As far as I remember we had them almost every year. Nothing new about it. Doesn't say that global warming doesn't exist. But to shut of any discussion because of global warming is just wrong

I am also French, I am also born in the early 80s and I can't understand how someone like you could have such an asinine take. This isn't of the same magnitude. Get out of "vibes" and burying your head in the sand and look at the total surface burnt, look at water levels in nappes phréatiques, look at temperature records and total days of canicule...

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#282

Post by mytailorisrich »

evomassiny wrote: post #275
mytailorisrich wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The elephant in the room is that many of those fires are criminal and that the French government has arbitrated budget restrictions against investing in fire-fighting equipment, especially planes. It so happens that the current fire near Bordeaux is roughy in the same area as the historic fire of 1949 in which 82 people died (and currently still smaller, hopefully it will stay that way) [1], as someone else already m…

About a third of those fires are criminal [0], yes that's a lot, but the majority are still accidental or natural. Even the criminal ones are only enabled because of the dry vegetation, caused by the recent heat waves. IMO focusing on what caused the spark is missing the root cause: global warming. And yes you can argue that such fires existed previously, but what's concerning is that the frequency on which they are…

In the South of France, dry vegetation in summer is normal. Areas where this is most expected, the Mediterranean, have actually seen a decrease of fires over time as preventive measures and fire-fighting readiness have increased. [1] See graph for "Nombre de feux de foret in zone mediterraneene 1973-2024", graph for "surfaces parcourues", and text.

That's why I am suggesting to keep a cool head and to take a step back to analyse things rationally. In any case that is good advice to adapt to warming, too. If you go down the rabbit hole of media reporting you are going to have a nervous breakdown.

[1] https://observatoire.foret.gouv.fr/themes/l-historique-des-f...

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#283

Post by Orphis »

watwut wrote: post #211
baxtr wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re both right. However OPs post is more useful than yours. By now, everyone knows about climate change. But I assume most didn’t know the fact about the pine trees in this area. Nowadays it’s much more about how we deal with climate change and not so much about the fact that there is human made climate change.

> By now, everyone knows about climate change. Not true, I have seen people deny it on HN recently. And looking at other debates, yes it is necessary to reiterate the primary cause. Because centrists will absolutely use the lack of that reiteration to do the "well actually it is the pine trees" in two days.

It's not a single source problem anyway. There are many contributing factors, some are probably more important than others.

The most important thing is knowing what can be done in the short to medium term locally to improve the situation. If you tell the people living near those forests they need to fix global warming, you're not going anywhere. Can they monitor the forest beds better, do some preventive measures to limit the propagation of fires when they happen? Probably!

Unless you're on a major international forum or you have proper global reach and are a trendsetter, complaining about the obvious global warming isn't going to do much. And even if it's not obvious to some other people, you're not going to change their mind anyway on a HN discussion.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#284

Post by bigfatkitten »

reco98gg wrote: post #198
reco98gg wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I responded to this elsewhere on this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49065156 Basically they had no way to fight those fires at the time, as the article explains.

[Answering here to @applepearlime bc limits of my green acct] They do have firebreaks, paths for trucks to go in many places [1]. I've seen many. But you could argue they're not wide enough to actually break fire. And when I see videos of how tall and wide the flames are, I have no idea how wide they should be... It's a managed forest though, definitely looked after because economics interests (wood, tourism). [1] ht…

> And when I see videos of how tall and wide the flames are, I have no idea how wide they should be...

Up to 40km, depending on the wind. Embers can travel a long way.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#285

Post by remus »

reco98gg wrote: post #140
Dibby053 wrote: post #57

For context on why this region is burning so easily: the Landes and Médoc are huge, artificial pine forests created in the 19th century under Napoleon III to drain and reclaim what was considered an inhospitable wetland, where shepherds famously walked around on stilts. Pine resin and needle litter makes it exceptionally flammable, and being an uninterrupted monoculture on flat land it lacks natural barriers to stop…

The main reason the forest is burning is global warming. There were 3 punishing heatwaves before the fire, it was just a matter of time. A part of the Fontainebleau forest, much more north, no pine trees, went in smoke earlier. Forests are burning near Madrid. It may make some people feel better to think that it is an isolated, local problem, but unfortunately global warming is the main culprit and we at least need t…

> A part of the Fontainebleau forest, much more north, no pine trees, went in smoke earlier. Forests are burning near Madrid.

Small correction, but Fontainebleau is a fairly mixed forest including 20-30% pine.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#286

Post by mytailorisrich »

holoduke wrote: post #261
reco98gg wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason the forest is burning is global warming. There were 3 punishing heatwaves before the fire, it was just a matter of time. A part of the Fontainebleau forest, much more north, no pine trees, went in smoke earlier. Forests are burning near Madrid. It may make some people feel better to think that it is an isolated, local problem, but unfortunately global warming is the main culprit and we at least need t…

We have these fires in france since I was born in early 80s. As far as I remember we had them almost every year. Nothing new about it. Doesn't say that global warming doesn't exist. But to shut of any discussion because of global warming is just wrong

Depending on the area that has always been the case, indeed.

In fact, in the most historically prone areas, the Mediterranean part of France, number of fires and surface area burnt have tended to decrease over time since the 1970s [1], which shows that being prepared works and this experience must now be used in more areas of the country.

[1] https://observatoire.foret.gouv.fr/themes/l-historique-des-f...

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#287

Post by gabaix »

applepearlime wrote: post #188
reco98gg wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I responded to this elsewhere on this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49065156 Basically they had no way to fight those fires at the time, as the article explains.

I can't say that I buy your argument. Either way, firebreaks and green firebreaks seem like they could be a reasonable mitigation approach, whatever the overall causes. Does anyone here know whether the Landes forest has good firebreaks? If not, does anyone here know why? I failed to find anything about it online.

I grew up there. I used to bike along stretches of firebreaks between plots. These firebreaks are nowhere nearly enough. Trees are young, pine needles spread everywhere, and ground is sandy.

The forest is a giant tinderbox.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#288

Post by othello »

yubblegum wrote: post #277
madaxe_again wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Landes Forest is a human disturbance. The whole damned thing was planted in the 1850s as an enormous pine plantation. Same thing as drives wildfires in Portugal - maritime pine (and in Portugal’s case eucalyptus). Vast, dense, barely managed pyrophytic monocultures. The problem isn’t poorly managed forest, it’s the forest, period - it shouldn’t be there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landes_forest

As an aside, N. III's reign seems to have been overall something of a disaster for the French.

To be fair, that's more the Third Republic's verdict than what recent historians have concluded. For sure, Sedan was a catastrophe and the Mexican adventure was worse, but the two decades in between gave France the railway build-out, Haussmann's Paris, the creation of modern investment banks, and even universal male suffrage, which the Republic then kept ([1], [2] & [3]).

In this particular instance, everybody in this thread seems to be forgetting the region where the fires are currently raging used to be very unsanitary swamps before the pine forests were planted. These older wetlands were a major source of disease and misery for the local population. The reason why they only planted pines were because the soil there is poor & acidic. Nothing else grows really. Now of course, this needs to be rethought in the light of climate change, but it wasn't a stupid idea at the time.

[1] The unlikely triumph of Napoleon III, https://engelsbergideas.com/reviews/the-unlikely-triumph-of-...

[2] Napoleon III and the Second Empire, https://www.routledge.com/Napoleon-III-and-the-Second-Empire...

[3] The People's Emperor, https://www.faber.co.uk/product/9780571361304-the-peoples-em...

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#289

Post by Kon5ole »

reco98gg wrote: post #140
Dibby053 wrote: post #57

For context on why this region is burning so easily: the Landes and Médoc are huge, artificial pine forests created in the 19th century under Napoleon III to drain and reclaim what was considered an inhospitable wetland, where shepherds famously walked around on stilts. Pine resin and needle litter makes it exceptionally flammable, and being an uninterrupted monoculture on flat land it lacks natural barriers to stop…

The main reason the forest is burning is global warming. There were 3 punishing heatwaves before the fire, it was just a matter of time. A part of the Fontainebleau forest, much more north, no pine trees, went in smoke earlier. Forests are burning near Madrid. It may make some people feel better to think that it is an isolated, local problem, but unfortunately global warming is the main culprit and we at least need t…

>The main reason the forest is burning is global warming.

I get where you're coming from but I don't think this is helpful.

Everyone with any sense knows global warming will cause heatwaves and they increase the risk of fires, but nobody in France can do anything about it. Even if everyone in France would do everything they can to stop global warming starting tomorrow, it would change nothing. It wouldn't help even if they got all of the EU on board.

What the people of France can do is demand more resources for fire protection, build air conditioned locations for the poor and elderly, plant trees for shade and so on.

This can be done immediately and will actually help. It also engages everyone, even a climate denier can get onboard with fighting fires and having shelter for heat.

If we stop at "it's the global warming", the response is either apathy or policies. We should prioritize things that will help right now.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#290

Post by let_rec »

reco98gg wrote: post #140
Dibby053 wrote: post #57

For context on why this region is burning so easily: the Landes and Médoc are huge, artificial pine forests created in the 19th century under Napoleon III to drain and reclaim what was considered an inhospitable wetland, where shepherds famously walked around on stilts. Pine resin and needle litter makes it exceptionally flammable, and being an uninterrupted monoculture on flat land it lacks natural barriers to stop…

The main reason the forest is burning is global warming. There were 3 punishing heatwaves before the fire, it was just a matter of time. A part of the Fontainebleau forest, much more north, no pine trees, went in smoke earlier. Forests are burning near Madrid. It may make some people feel better to think that it is an isolated, local problem, but unfortunately global warming is the main culprit and we at least need t…

Agree about global warming.

However, Fontainebleau forest has many pine trees.

In fact there is an invasive caterpillar there that lives in pine trees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_processionary

The caterpillars are also a consequence of warming.

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