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US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

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Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#501

Post by frgturpwd »

mcv wrote: post #493
invalidusernam3 wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like an insane thing to have to do for visiting a supposed first world country. If phones had been around during USSR times I imagine you would have had to do the same. Personally I will rather just avoid any travel to the US, and I hope others do the same.

Security concerns you need to think about when visiting the US are absolutely no less than those when visiting China these days. Treat it like a totalitarian dictatorship with more technological means.

Honestly, I personally would be less nervous visiting China.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#502

Post by wongarsu »

underdeserver wrote: post #489
Telaneo wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but then says he can't have me disrespecting and being a smart-ass to his cops Maybe it's just me, but I am of the exact opposite opinion. Cops have enormous power, and any misuse of it should be pushed back on hard. Cops that misuse their power should not be respected. An informed citizenry is a wonderful asset in making that power imbalance less of a problem.

There's a huge difference between misusing their power and not having perfect understanding of what they're allowed and not allowed to do. I'm sure there are scenarios where the cop can confiscate the surfboard and the car. The distinction is probably somewhat vague even for highly educated lawyers, and cops cannot expected to be that. He should have stood up for his rights, sure, but laughing in the cop's face and t…

As a citizen, when I have an incomplete understanding of what I'm allowed and not allowed to do I have every incentive to stay on the side of things I'm sure I am allowed to do. Just threatening to do things that you are not allowed to do has the annoying tendency of being a crime

I'm not sure how this suddenly flips for cops

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#503

Post by tsimionescu »

b112 wrote: post #423
Sammi wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or that just selectively wipes only stuff you have marked for deletion. That way the profile stays up to date and believable.

Yes, this also has the advantage of speed perhaps. I can see, deleting specific apps (and their data) as thing #1, and thing #2 would be certain directories. Of course, the problem is, are icons going to be vanishing off the home screen, when the agent is looking at it? Or will the unlock -> screen coming on, be super slow? Of course the problem there is, many people have an app store installed, and app stores have h…

Note that in the USA and a few other jurisdictions, I believe there is now a recognized possibility for the border agents to ask for access to your social media, so even wiping the phone, or even traveling without a phone, is not entirely safe.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#504

Post by bryanrasmussen »

jjbinx007 wrote: post #428
ifwinterco wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I thought this was the standard solution? People have been doing this since way back in the TrueCrypt days - IIRC you could configure it to run a whole fake version of Windows if you wanted without easily revealing your actual main volume. Most hardware crypto wallets also have a "duress wallet" feature where you keep a low balance for the same reason. Wiping is obviously extremely suspicious and asking for troub…

"Wiping is obviously extremely suspicious and asking for trouble" It's sad this is the default view. It's his device, his data, his life on that phone. If he had wiped the phone before the interrogation it wouldn't be a problem. How long before? A second before? A week before? But wiping the data a minute later is suddenly asking for trouble.

it seems to me that if you give them a password to unlock the phone and when it unlocks it has been wiped that will cause problems whether it is the password that causes the wiping or not?

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#505

Post by int_19h »

pennomi wrote: post #93
zug_zug wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are aware that the government can physically do a lot of stuff, e.g. shoot you in the face for no reason. And vice-versa for that matter. However there are arguments morally, and constitutionally, and logically, about what can be done.

And all of those arguments are entirely academic, and subject to change depending on economic status, skin color, or nationality. Law is effectively a weak gentleman’s agreement we tolerate because the alternative is violence. (Well, law is enforced with violence too, I suppose.)

> Law is effectively a weak gentleman’s agreement we tolerate

Not all of us do. To be honest, the older I am, the less sense many laws make to me, and the more I'm willing to help people break them.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#506

Post by FeepingCreature »

neilalexander wrote: post #464
itake wrote: post #388

The duress pin deletes the encryption key information used to decode the documents and does not damage the documents themselves. Not sure why the police and news are saying that he destroyed evidence, since the evidence (as it always has existed before the search began) remains on the disk.

Someone else commented about the law being “non-autistic”, this is a perfect example of that. The technicality of the encryption keys vs the files is irrelevant, the intent was to successfully prevent a search. The border agents will not be even remotely impressed or suddenly decide to release you just because you say “well the files are technically still there”.

What they should really do is make the decryption key backupable.

Then you can keep it at home, and you can genuinely say that you don't remember it because it's like 128 digits.

And you're not "destroying evidence" in the jurisdiction in question because the phone is already locked. And you can't unlock it on demand.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#507

Post by chaz6 »

neilalexander wrote: post #464
itake wrote: post #388

The duress pin deletes the encryption key information used to decode the documents and does not damage the documents themselves. Not sure why the police and news are saying that he destroyed evidence, since the evidence (as it always has existed before the search began) remains on the disk.

Someone else commented about the law being “non-autistic”, this is a perfect example of that. The technicality of the encryption keys vs the files is irrelevant, the intent was to successfully prevent a search. The border agents will not be even remotely impressed or suddenly decide to release you just because you say “well the files are technically still there”.

Perhaps a defence to this is ensure that a copy of the encryption key exists in a location outside the jurisdiction of the state.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#508

Post by oceanhaiyang »

frgturpwd wrote: post #499
invalidusernam3 wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like an insane thing to have to do for visiting a supposed first world country. If phones had been around during USSR times I imagine you would have had to do the same. Personally I will rather just avoid any travel to the US, and I hope others do the same.

I wouldn't say you are overreacting at all. I know someone who was detained for months on US soil after a phone search where the only "evidence" against him they found is illegal content sent by someone else to him on a group chat he doesn't even check. Had to get a lawyer and spend time in prison just waiting to be deported back.

What is illegal content in this context?

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#509

Post by hn_submit »

schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

What about simply not using a smartphone and accessing your data via internet when you're in the country? You could use Mega (secure file storage) to access your files, for example.

I wonder if border agents could coerce you into giving access to your internet file storage, though.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#510

Post by Hikikomori »

nostrademons wrote: post #386
helterskelter wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got selected as juror once just hoping to laugh at anything the cops said on the witness stand and let some poor soul go free but it turns out the defendant was just a violent scumbag who stabbed random people in public, and there was a video of it. After we decided he was guilty, they listed other things he had been convicted of and asked if he was a repeat offender... Let's see, shot somebody in the back, robbed…

I just served on a jury and in our case, the cop was a lying scumbag, the prosecutor's expert witnesses were people milking the taxpayers to provide the evaluations that the state wanted to hear for thousands of dollars per hour, the defense's expert witnesses copy-and-pasted an evaluation from another client but didn't bother to proofread before the prosecutor brought up that they had the wrong name in the text, and…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Grigson

Forensic sciences and experts hired by prosecutors is a big problem.

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