US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search • Hacker News Board

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#481

Post by mihaaly » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 8:43 AM UTC

matwood wrote: post #437

schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

> I think they should not have this power, but the agents and courts probably don't care that I think that. ... > and about not angering the agents more than you plan to When I was a teenager (long ago at this point), I got into an argument with a police officer over surfing in a certain area. It was pouring down rain, so he was annoyed he had to sit outside and wait for my friends and me to come to shore. Once we go…

And what did this judge think (not much, apparently)? Punishing you will make you respect the cops?! This idiot confuses the fear of punishment with respect. Also, does not understand that respect is not to be forced but to be earned. Forcing it will erode respect and generate lots of pretension and covert hate. This judge basically endangers all cops (and the community) for giving revenge to this one prick lacking self control! It's mind-blowing that someone less mature than a teenager can become a judge!

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#482

Post by mrandish » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 8:43 AM UTC

schoen wrote: post #449

ifwinterco wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I thought this was the standard solution? People have been doing this since way back in the TrueCrypt days - IIRC you could configure it to run a whole fake version of Windows if you wanted without easily revealing your actual main volume. Most hardware crypto wallets also have a "duress wallet" feature where you keep a low balance for the same reason. Wiping is obviously extremely suspicious and asking for troub…

We noted in the border search guide that lying to the agents in response to their questions is potentially a crime in its own right (even if it's not done in order to hide anything illegal). We thought that this made hidden volumes quite tricky, particularly if one's intent was to pretend to comply with a question or request while actually not complying.

IANAL but I think while lying to some questions might lead to obstruction charges, not answering is simply exercising the right to remain silent.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#483

Post by invalidusernam3 » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 8:45 AM UTC

itake wrote: post #389

schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

can you share the link? This? https://www.eff.org/document/eff-border-search-pocket-guide ---- Seems the better strategy (for iOS) is come in with a plan to say yes to agents without pissing them off (like handing them an empty phone). better to local back up, encrypt, upload to your home server etc. Then login to a fresh iCloud account, selectively install apps, photos, and mail accounts. So it doesn't look like you…

This seems like an insane thing to have to do for visiting a supposed first world country. If phones had been around during USSR times I imagine you would have had to do the same. Personally I will rather just avoid any travel to the US, and I hope others do the same.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#484

Post by watwut » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 8:46 AM UTC

oliwarner wrote: post #476

coldtea wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Federal prosecutors won't even pursue cases unless they think there's a high chance of success. Given the incarceration rates compared to average western standards, that's a moot point. Even if they selectively pursue, they do pursue a hell of a lot, and they do get a hell of a lot of convictions - relatively. Factor in the severity of the convictions, also much worse compared to average western standards even for…

> Given the incarceration rates... I don't think you make anything moot by compounding more regional stats. Some countries have more crime , they underinvest in rehabilitation, addiction treatment, and social diversion programmes. Shock horror: jobless, homeless addicts commit crimes. The US also has a land border with long land borders. That is all to say, comparing apples and margaritas doesn't do what you think it…

US does not have that much more crime.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#485

Post by imtringued » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 8:47 AM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #180

godwinson__4-8 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"U.S. law though is highly non-autistic" hilarious but also another point to emphasize is how truly depressing American courts often are. Take the right to a jury. It sounds noble in theory. But when they say judged by your peers they don't mean your actual peers. It's people who couldn't get out of jury duty. Prosecutors have high success rates. Federal prosecutor success rate is over > 90%. Studies of jury psycholo…

> Federal prosecutor success rate is over > 90%. This is a misunderstood statistic. Federal prosecutors won't even pursue cases unless they think there's a high chance of success. They don't operate like two private parties suing each other to force the court to decide something. If the evidence is there or the charges aren't fully formed, they don't waste resources on it. This leads to a contradictory set of complai…

I think you forgot something even more basic. Federal prosecutors handle federal crimes and the vast majority of those require extensive investigations to gather evidence before you can even initiate a court case.

The most classic case of federal offense is tax fraud. You can't record tax fraud on a camera or believe the witnesses, you actually need to look at the balance sheet and contracts of the company and make sure there is actually a crime to prosecute.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#486

Post by LouisSayers » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 8:48 AM UTC

IshKebab wrote: post #402

schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

So I guess what you really want is a duress PIN that loads into a fake innocent profile.

Or travel with a diary containing a post-it note labelled "p4sswd"

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#487

Post by schoen » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 8:50 AM UTC

After reading more of this thread I'm kind of frustrated that people aren't aware of the border search exception.

I strongly disagree with the border search exception and would like to see it drastically limited or abolished.

It is also something that has clearly existed in caselaw for decades (arguably for centuries) and that the courts have routinely (to my regret) strongly reaffirmed.

The border search doctrine says that border agents do not need a reason to examine you or your possessions when you are entering the country. They do not need to believe that you are doing something wrong or committing a crime. If they suspect you, they don't need proof or a good reason to investigate you.

I find this doctrine very disturbing and I hope it will be changed or narrowed. I also would like people commenting in this thread to understand that border agents are not just imagining things when they claim to have legal authority to inspect people (or, alas, electronic devices or data) at the border, and that this didn't just start under the Trump administration or something.

The legal consequences of providing a duress PIN may not have been tested and this defendant could well prevail in this case. I just wish people commenting here would understand that there is a tremendous amount of history related to border search authority. You can disagree with it (I hope you will!), but you should understand that it's not just something that someone just made up last week or last month or last year.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#488

Post by Pikamander2 » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 8:52 AM UTC

unwise-exe wrote: post #254

Why is the headline blaming the OS for what the user chose to do? This is like saying it's my car's fault if I decided to drive onto the sidewalk or something.

Yeah, the way that this case is being reported on is really irritating.

While he technically did use a special GrapheneOS feature to wipe his phone, the criminal charges would have been the same if he had used the default "reset phone" feature on Android or iOS right before handing the phone over.

The real focus of this case should be on the reason for his detainment and the confiscatation of his phone and multiple refusals to contact his lawyer.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#489

Post by underdeserver » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 8:53 AM UTC

Telaneo wrote: post #451

matwood wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think they should not have this power, but the agents and courts probably don't care that I think that. ... > and about not angering the agents more than you plan to When I was a teenager (long ago at this point), I got into an argument with a police officer over surfing in a certain area. It was pouring down rain, so he was annoyed he had to sit outside and wait for my friends and me to come to shore. Once we go…

> but then says he can't have me disrespecting and being a smart-ass to his cops Maybe it's just me, but I am of the exact opposite opinion. Cops have enormous power, and any misuse of it should be pushed back on hard. Cops that misuse their power should not be respected. An informed citizenry is a wonderful asset in making that power imbalance less of a problem.

There's a huge difference between misusing their power and not having perfect understanding of what they're allowed and not allowed to do.

I'm sure there are scenarios where the cop can confiscate the surfboard and the car. The distinction is probably somewhat vague even for highly educated lawyers, and cops cannot expected to be that.

He should have stood up for his rights, sure, but laughing in the cop's face and telling them they're full of shit is disrespectful, and at least where I live is a misdemeanor even if the original case is wrong.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#490

Post by jwally » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 8:56 AM UTC

It feels like if he triggered a wipe - that is destruction of evidence; but if it auto-wiped he's fine.

If it were a box of drugs and he triggers an incendiary device - he's in trouble . If agents trip a protective boobie trap and destroy the box- he is fine.

Don't know why but this feels correct to me.