Live data from Hacker News

French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

france24.com

231–240 of 394 posts

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#231
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> blame capitalism. If nothing else because it has so far stopped all effective measure to stop the climate crisis. Growth-driven ecological harm isn’t unique to capitalism.

And? Capitalism is the current system, and the one that is actively thwarting efforts to mitigate the disaster. I don't see how the existence of other systems that would be equally bad or worse is relevant.

Wealth is a sharper answer than capitalism, even though it is an overlapping one.

To manage forrests and and other agriculture in the traditional way, we need extreme amounts of extreme poverty. We need millions and millions of people who are happy to spend 14 hours per day collecting sticks and tending sheep in the woods, in exchange for nothing more than a bowl of porridge. And they need to this every day all their lives.

We don't have that kind of poverty since capitalism took over from feudalism.

There are other ways than capitalism to build wealth in a society, but to the degree that they work and actually reduce poverty, they will have the same outcome.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#232
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pine forests have been there for centuries, so it being pine is no explanation at all for why it's burning so badly now .

I come from the Mediterranean region and locally we know many explanations for that. Many of those pine forests are relatively new. Pine trees burn frequently, around every 20-30 years. In the past they used to be mixed with many other original trees, but during the recent century reforestation, pines were planted as the single tree species, making fires more prone to happen and more easily to spread. In the past, wa…

> Also, if we talk about past centuries, temperatures used to be higher during early middle age and before. These high temperatures are nothing new in terms of historical forest.

This was the hottest year on record. 10 of the last 15 years have been the hottest year on record, consecutively. What makes you believe this fake information about the middle ages?

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be time to revert it back to wetland.

or even just re-planting different types of trees

From Le Monde:

> Some efforts have begun to diversify the Landes forest and to maintain or promote deciduous trees, particularly along the edges of plots. The major difficulty, according to foresters, is that very few species are able to grow in this region, where the sandy soil is very poor and very acidic (it is one of the poorest soils in Europe). Foresters describe the maritime pine as a "miracle species" in this regard.

> While other species can still grow, it is much more slowly and with greater difficulty. Radically transforming this vast forest, currently 80% dominated by maritime pines, therefore seems complicated, and there is also a significant economic stake involved in timber production in the region.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#234
post #217
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By now, everyone knows about climate change. Not true, I have seen people deny it on HN recently. And looking at other debates, yes it is necessary to reiterate the primary cause. Because centrists will absolutely use the lack of that reiteration to do the "well actually it is the pine trees" in two days.

For me, it is more important to fight for human lives than fighting centrists or deniers tbh. You have to pick your battles.

It is centrists and deniers who are stopping us in implementing effective measures that would fight for human lives.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#235
post #174
post #56

Spain is also completely on fire - there's a website that collects all official information and locates every fire on a map: https://xn--incendiosespaa-2nb.es/ (in Spanish) It is disheartening to see how everything is basically in red.

If you unzoom even more, even the sea is red. I don't think this map shows what you think it does.

I don't think parent thinks the radius of the circles is the range of the fire, that'd indeed mean our sea is currently on fire too, which hasn't happened in a very long time.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The water was likely redirected for agricultural purposes and the farmers won't/can't surrender it on top of drought, if it's anything like the US. Would be real cool if we could make investments like this though.

In this case no, all the water is drained. I don't think meaningful amounts are retained for agriculture.

The pine forest is the agriculture.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#237

For context on why this region is burning so easily: the Landes and Médoc are huge, artificial pine forests created in the 19th century under Napoleon III to drain and reclaim what was considered an inhospitable wetland, where shepherds famously walked around on stilts. Pine resin and needle litter makes it exceptionally flammable, and being an uninterrupted monoculture on flat land it lacks natural barriers to stop…

The main reason the forest is burning is global warming. There were 3 punishing heatwaves before the fire, it was just a matter of time. A part of the Fontainebleau forest, much more north, no pine trees, went in smoke earlier. Forests are burning near Madrid. It may make some people feel better to think that it is an isolated, local problem, but unfortunately global warming is the main culprit and we at least need t…

Blaming everything on global warming is extremely dangerous. It fails to address many other reasons why we are experiencing fires and creates an easy to blame enemy and a sensation that there's nothing we can do.

We should really go way deeper than just blaming everything on an increase of temperatures, which nevertheless is actually happening.

We, locals, have been warning already for decades of the increase of fires due to an accumulation of reasons, which I have actually described already in another message down below but I can summarize here.

* Forest mass has actually increased a lot during the last decades, Spain has now around 50% more forest mass than in the 1970s.

* Part of the increased mass has to do with reforestation efforts done by governments happening since last half of last century, which basically planted many forests using pine varieties which grow very quickly but also burn quickly (Pines are biologically design to burn with their flammable design and dried needles, that's their feature).

* Historical local forest were composed of many varieties of trees, including oaks, holm oaks, poplar, which grow slowly, are way less prone to burn, and regrow again after a fire. Those varieties were never used in any reforestation efforts, which has resulted in many new forests being extremely prone to burn quickly

* Population has shifted enormously towards big cities, abandoning little villages where forests were part of their style of life. Lumber was part of their economical income, which resulted in continuous care of those forests and efforts in preservation. There are still some communities like that in some areas of Spain, and their forests have the lowest rate of wildfires in the whole country.

* Many techniques like firebreaks, counter-fires, low intensity burning to clear crop stubble, dry brush, and old vegetation to regenerate fresh grass for livestock and prepare fields are now forbidden, again increasing the risk and extension of wildfires

* Forest Grazing is also nowadays completely forbidden. Sheep used to roam everywhere in the country, consuming many burning-prone vegetation, reducing also the risk of wildfires.

But even despite all of that, countries like Spain for example, have nowadays the lowest proportion of burnt forest since the last 50 years.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#238

For context on why this region is burning so easily: the Landes and Médoc are huge, artificial pine forests created in the 19th century under Napoleon III to drain and reclaim what was considered an inhospitable wetland, where shepherds famously walked around on stilts. Pine resin and needle litter makes it exceptionally flammable, and being an uninterrupted monoculture on flat land it lacks natural barriers to stop…

The main reason the forest is burning is global warming. There were 3 punishing heatwaves before the fire, it was just a matter of time. A part of the Fontainebleau forest, much more north, no pine trees, went in smoke earlier. Forests are burning near Madrid. It may make some people feel better to think that it is an isolated, local problem, but unfortunately global warming is the main culprit and we at least need t…

> Le sujet, c’est l’aridification du milieu. Pour revenir à cet incendie, ce n’est pas un problème de culture, mais de climat.

A bit of a distinction without a difference. The climate is not changing back, it's the new normal. In that climate, this particular kind of agriculture (huge pine monocultures) has become a problem.

It breaks my heart to say this, I've spent nearly all my childhood summers in my family's summer house down there. This year, I left just a few days before the evacuation order would have come.

It's going to be burning every year now and if we want to be safe there, the forest can't stay the same.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#239
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? Capitalism is the current system, and the one that is actively thwarting efforts to mitigate the disaster. I don't see how the existence of other systems that would be equally bad or worse is relevant.

Wealth is a sharper answer than capitalism, even though it is an overlapping one. To manage forrests and and other agriculture in the traditional way, we need extreme amounts of extreme poverty. We need millions and millions of people who are happy to spend 14 hours per day collecting sticks and tending sheep in the woods, in exchange for nothing more than a bowl of porridge. And they need to this every day all their…

I’m referring to the climate disaster in my last comment. It’s global warming that is the main culprit. There has never been a class of people tending Canada’s forests by collecting sticks.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or even just re-planting different types of trees

From Le Monde: > Some efforts have begun to diversify the Landes forest and to maintain or promote deciduous trees, particularly along the edges of plots. The major difficulty, according to foresters, is that very few species are able to grow in this region, where the sandy soil is very poor and very acidic (it is one of the poorest soils in Europe). Foresters describe the maritime pine as a "miracle species" in this…

Is the solution repeated burning of pine to enrich the soil, making it easier for other tree species to gain a foothold in the area?
Post reply on HN