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Who's afraid of Chinese models?

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Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#931
post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you suppose the damages would be for a ToS violation? The difference between subscription rates and API rates? OpenAI accused Deepseek of misappropriating trade secrets which could have serious penalties but seems like an awfully hard case to make. Seems like we’d all be better off with a law that governs data sharing among AI companies, if that’s the policy goal.

> The difference between subscription rates and API rates? Infinite $ since you’re trying to steal their proprietary information, in their view. Also API usage also has ToS.

Right so that's a trade secrets argument. I agree that's probably their best current legal avenue. It isn't related to ToS though.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#932
post #929

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, that was not my point either.

You were answering the question "What security issues come from self-hosting?" The security issue you named has nothing to do with self-hosting. What, then, was your point?

We seem to be reading the same comment(s) differently.

The context (verbatim):

> Correct. We need open weights, open code and open data. If nobody else can reproduce what someone did there will always be security questions. Even if we can reproduce it there could still be security concerns but it's more realistic to investigate yourself.

In short, it's an appeal to full openness and reproducibility on the basis of security; open weights alone notably do not provide that same confidence. They're better in some respects, not really in others.

Then comes the question (also verbatim):

> Exactly what are the possible 'security issues' of self hosting an open weights model?

Implying then that as long as you do have the weights and just self host it, the asker cannot imagine what could possibly go wrong. What is the gap, if any?

And so I explained. That was my point. Open weights do not give you full reproducibility, and so that on its own falls short of what the parent comment is making an appeal to. That there does remain a security concern, shared by remote and closed models, that does not improve just by having the weights, but would if you did have full reproducibility. Explaining that gap was my point, as that is what I understood as being asked there. It's the only thing I can reasonably imagine being asked, in fact.

This is a materially different question to what you apparently extracted (again, verbatim):

> What security issues come from self-hosting?

Implying that by self-hosting models, something bad might specifically happen.

I do not think this, do not think I suggested this, do not think the original question suggested this, and generally do not think this is indeed any sensible, in or outside the context. Certainly not beyond something common sense, like vLLM being compromised or whatever.

You seem to agree. But then how did we get here, clearly talking past each other?

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#933

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Xi could theoretically reduce GDP and associated emissions with the stroke of a pen He showed he was willing to do that during Covid. If he was really convinced climate change was a problem he could clearly do more than he is. It’s not a prisoners dilemma issue with Xi like it is with most countries. He controls 1/3 of global emissions. He is probably the only person on the planet who can personally reduce future t…

And then they ended those harsh COVID measures due to unpopularity and protests. He's not God-King. I'd love for everyone to do more but its a little rich to hear from westerners, who emit more CO2 per person, that the Chinese should stop developing people out of third world poverty for everyone's sake. Peasants produce much less carbon than people with air conditioning.

> but its a little rich to hear from westerners, who emit more CO2 per person, that the Chinese

1. Most western countries don’t emit more per capita than China.

2. I’m not saying what Xi should or shouldn’t do. I’m telling that what he is doing indicates that he doesn’t believe climate change is an existential threat.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#934

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The only reasonable thing to do is simply not bring your phone. Actually, not bringing your phone is eminently unreasonable, particularly to an airport. Sure, you could wait in a line for a paper boarding pass, but if everyone were "reasonable" and did this, what do you think it would do to airport lines? What would happen when a flight gets canceled, and everyone rushes to the desks for help? Buddy, birth has a 100…

If anyone knows that life has a 100% fatality rate, it would be me, with cancer. Trust me I know that. It’s not an argument, it’s just not. There is an amount of acceptable risk, you’re right. How do we calculate it? By making sure we follow due process, the law, and we hold parties accountable. ICE is allowed to execute Americans. Yes, allowed. Because they’ve done it many times, and face 0 accountability. So they a…

I am sorry that you live in so much fear and anger. You have already been beaten.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#935
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you or someone please explain several of the claims made in this tweet? "I am personally surprised the Chinese state continues to allow the open sourcing of models this good, given potential risks" what risks? I suspect the reason they are is 75% explained by strategic blindness/lack of AGI-pilledness (the CCP is very Yann Lecun-y in its views of AI). Confused what this means Open-weight models are inherently dec…

> "I am personally surprised the Chinese state continues to allow the open sourcing of models this good, given potential risks" what risks? I assume they mean the risk of opening up "forbidden" knowledge to the masses without adequate control, which the CCP hasn't historically been known to do. > I suspect the reason they are is 75% explained by strategic blindness/lack of AGI-pilledness (the CCP is very Yann Lecun-y…

[flagged]

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#936
post #902

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that’s not a logical defense and nobody cares about moral high grounds. That’s why it’s a logical fallacy. Actions can be judged on their own merits regardless of who presents the arguments.

Hilarious. It is absolutely a logical défense: our societal order and its relative fairness don’t emerge from the void. Otherwise a victim defending himself is the same as the person assaulting? Perpetrator: you just stabbed me OMG! Victim: you were going to rape and kill me Perpetrator: sorry that’s just whataboutism and definitely not a logical defence. Your actions can be judged on their own merits, regardless of…

Nope, defense is an action to prevent an attack. China isn’t building coal plants to stop global warming.

Also, the world isn’t two sides. There are tons of participants on this site who are not in the US that criticize both china and the US (i.e. most of Europe). So you realize how stupid the defense looks of “I’m behaving like a piece of shit because this guy behaves like a piece of shit” when there is a room full of people trying to do the right thing.

If your argument is whataboutism, it means you have no actual defense for your behavior. You’re just appealing to “someone else did something bad”.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#937

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your exhibit is an obvious anti-distillation technique. You can expect far worse from less-regulated companies.

Neither Anthropic nor OpenAI are regulated in the "regulated business" meaning.

I count being incorporated in Delaware as a high baseline level of regulation vs. random Chinese API providers.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#938

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely nothing compared to what China did to the Uyghurs, or China cutting citizens off of the financial system (WeChat) due to posting political content... If you were in China, you would be blacklisted for posting a similiar comment on wechat. If you openly called the CCP a group of pedo's you'd regret it within 24 hours.

> This is absolutely nothing compared to what China did to the Uyghurs which is absolutely nothing compared to what they did to Gaza.

Palestine elected a international terrorist organization to head their government, then killed, and raped a music festival.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#939
post #904

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely nothing compared to what China did to the Uyghurs, or China cutting citizens off of the financial system (WeChat) due to posting political content... If you were in China, you would be blacklisted for posting a similiar comment on wechat. If you openly called the CCP a group of pedo's you'd regret it within 24 hours.

If you post content like this you likely to get refused entering the US. I realize it doesn't apply to US citizens but it's also not like everyone can say what they want and get away with it.

Refusing entry is not the same as being made to disappear.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#940

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then they ended those harsh COVID measures due to unpopularity and protests. He's not God-King. I'd love for everyone to do more but its a little rich to hear from westerners, who emit more CO2 per person, that the Chinese should stop developing people out of third world poverty for everyone's sake. Peasants produce much less carbon than people with air conditioning.

> but its a little rich to hear from westerners, who emit more CO2 per person, that the Chinese 1. Most western countries don’t emit more per capita than China. 2. I’m not saying what Xi should or shouldn’t do. I’m telling that what he is doing indicates that he doesn’t believe climate change is an existential threat.

I also would like the Chinese to do more, but as an American waving broadly at our political consensus, I have a hard time pointing fingers. At least they're doing something.
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