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Who's afraid of Chinese models?

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Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#881

Post by burnerRhodov3 »

podgorniy wrote: post #461
hetman wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be a problem that they're Chinese? It's a problem because their country is ruled by an authoritarian regime. The West, by contrast, doesn't have a singular arbiter of truth, it has a plurality of perspectives (as much as certain interest groups would really rather that was not the case). It's not perfect, but those of us who have memories of living under authoritarian regimes can tell you there's no comp…

> It's a problem because their country is ruled by an authoritarian regime Hey, have you seeing what trump does with your (presumably) country? Maybe wars? Maybe market manipulation? Mayde pedo right covering on the government level? Maybe bubbles and threats to EU? What an ignorance. You live with old stories, not the current state of the world...

This is absolutely nothing compared to what China did to the Uyghurs, or China cutting citizens off of the financial system (WeChat) due to posting political content... If you were in China, you would be blacklisted for posting a similiar comment on wechat. If you openly called the CCP a group of pedo's you'd regret it within 24 hours.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#882

Post by burnerRhodov3 »

mynameisbilly wrote: post #851
hetman wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be a problem that they're Chinese? It's a problem because their country is ruled by an authoritarian regime. The West, by contrast, doesn't have a singular arbiter of truth, it has a plurality of perspectives (as much as certain interest groups would really rather that was not the case). It's not perfect, but those of us who have memories of living under authoritarian regimes can tell you there's no comp…

The United States has propped up some pretty horrific, murderous, bloodthirsty regimes over the past century to ensure they maintain a proxy presence across the globe. If supporting or engaging in an "authoritarian" regime is your litmus test, then the United States fails resoundingly.

The unfortunate concequence of "rebellion", is sometimes those regimes go on to be just as bad as the previous regime. You're playing captain hiehnsight here... intent matters in these things.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#883

Post by culi »

throw64259 wrote: post #871
culi wrote: post #865

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I got this list by paying attention. It would do you well to stop assuming everyone is as handicapped by LLM-dependency as you are. Every single one of these reports was a major news story. It boggles my mind how uninformed people can be and still readily jump into a debate online Okay please. Tell me how I misrepresented the links. I would love for you to actually do the work of reading them. Something you should…

The ICJ has not concluded anything. The ICC has not concluded anything - and it’s not even about genocide. It’s also the only known case in modern times where the prosecution officially started before the alleged crimes being prosecuted have been committed. IAGS was 120 people out of an association of 500 that anyone can join. It’s trivial to see that the UN is strongly biased by just taking one look at the data here…

Are you even responding to my comment?? I did not say ICJ concluded. The investigation is ongoing. They said Israel's actions are consistent with genocide. I did not say the ICC is concluded either. I just said they issued arrest warrants for war criminals Netanyahu and Gallant. That's a fact that you're avoiding. Also yeah ofc the ICC isn't the one who charges genocide. They charge for individual war crimes. That's the whole purpose of it. Anyone can become a paying supporter of the IAGS, that doesn't mean you can vote. Proposals go through an expert committee and are checked for factual accuracies the same way anything published in the IAGS journal is academically reviewd.

> It’s trivial to see that the UN is strongly biased by just taking one look at the data here https://unwatch.org/2025-unga-resolutions-on-israel-vs-rest-...

How can anyone read this and come away with that conclusion. 164 countries including Canada and every country in the EU voted to stop the illegal settlements in the West Bank and 7 countries (including Fiji, Palau, and Micronesia) voted against it. Yet the US is allowed to veto it. This whole page shows an incredible bias AGAINST holding Israel accountable for its crimes against humanity going back almost a century!

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#884

Post by culi »

metalspot wrote: post #410
culi wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Private companies will figure it out. Across sectors, China added 543 GW of energy in 2025. Next year, USA is expected to add between 70 and 80 GW of energy

You really have to look at energy/capita and how much energy is embedded in exports. The gross numbers are misleading. The US wasn't building new electrical generation capacity because it didn't need it and there was no market for it (caveats apply, but in a broad sense this is the major reason). Now that the market exists the question is how much can the US actually bring online and how rapidly, which is a real chal…

> The US wasn't building new electrical generation capacity because it didn't need it

You need to understand that the US added 40.3 GW of energy capacity in 2023. 70 to 80 represents a dramatic growth (nearly doubling) in new capacity.

Also China is just getting started. 8 out of the 12 nuclear power stations opening worldwide in 2027 are Chinese https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-fu...

If AI is "all about electricity" as you say then the US was barely ever in the running in the first place. There's no possible way the US could compete any time in the next 2 decades (putting aside a dramatic shakeup like war)

> Also why our friends in UK/Europe/China are so busy pushing anti-AI propaganda to try to undermine this.

Lol people make up the funniest theories when a political idea they don't like is gaining popularity. At least you didn't blame Russian bots

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#886

Post by inigyou »

WarmWash wrote: post #850
kelipso wrote: post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, someone completely missed the point… American propaganda is such a part of the culture, it gets barely noticed. Even movies that has military equipment, the military gets to have heavy input towards positive depictions of american military. US military has paid millions in marketing to all the sports organizations for promoting the military. Etc etc. This is just one aspect of the propaganda. https://en.wikipedi…

>etc etc please, keep going...

Americans literally recite a brainwashing mantra every day in school and are punished if they don't (despite the constitution).

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#887

Post by inigyou »

inglor_cz wrote: post #752
nixon_why69 wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if the American propaganda is "you are evil" and the Russian propaganda is "fuck those guys", you don't have to agree on every particular. People have nationalism everywhere.

The Russian propaganda is more along the lines of "Ukraine is an illegitimate state led by Nazis and drug junkies, they steal children's organs and sell them to the West, cook up dangerous viruses in their labs and prepared to attack innocent Russia, hence they have to be crushed, which our glorious Russian power will soon accomplish with mighty Oreshniks that have no parallel anywhere". There is way too many mixed m…

hey what a coincidence that's basically the exact same thing our own government tells us about Palestine

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#888

Post by wyrdcurt »

utilize1808 wrote: post #868
wyrdcurt wrote: post #862

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that would happen with literally any model without grounding and is more of a quality/competence issue, not what's being discussed. It'd be a bit of stretch to conclude open models are no more auditable than closed models based on that possibility alone. Also, in that case, there would likely be activations indicating that it is favoring a specific version. If that's an insecure version, sure that'd be suspicious…

> Also, in that case, there would likely be activations indicating that it is favoring a specific version. > Maybe you can illustrate a realistic scenario in which that would be a problem, otherwise I don't really understand what your point is in this context. I doubt it. Can you definitively prove that you can reliably detect the kind of threat I described when model weights are released? Can you be sure that your d…

So if the detector isn't perfect, it isn't useful? Not sure I buy that.

Also, even if there's no way to detect what the activations are doing, we already have the ability to analyze your proposed threat statistically. If the model repeatedly uses insecure libraries in most trials, then yes, in that case it would be prudent not to trust those weights.

Assuming one doesn't get banned for violating some ToS clause about using a closed model for LLM research, it could be possible to run those evals on a closed model too (likely at much greater expense). But there's a big difference: if such a statistical anomaly is discovered in an open model, one could potentially fine-tune that behavior out of it. With a closed model, that won't be an option.

Whether it makes a difference to the US government or not is beside the point. Even with a perfect solution, the current administration could do some mental gymnastics to achieve whatever political outcome they want. I’m not trying to make a political statement here, my point is technical: open-weights at least give us the possibility of visibility into why they generate what they do; this simply isn’t true with closed models.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#889

Post by JimsonYang »

random3 wrote: post #734
JimsonYang wrote: post #733

Why hasnt the EU develop an competitive open source model? Ive only of mistral, but with the chinese models you have GLM, Kimi, Qwen, Deepseek etc all of which seems to be better and better

Because the European researchers and engineers are busy building models in the US

Is there more info?

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#890

Post by rikima_ »

burnerRhodov3 wrote: post #881
podgorniy wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a problem because their country is ruled by an authoritarian regime Hey, have you seeing what trump does with your (presumably) country? Maybe wars? Maybe market manipulation? Mayde pedo right covering on the government level? Maybe bubbles and threats to EU? What an ignorance. You live with old stories, not the current state of the world...

This is absolutely nothing compared to what China did to the Uyghurs, or China cutting citizens off of the financial system (WeChat) due to posting political content... If you were in China, you would be blacklisted for posting a similiar comment on wechat. If you openly called the CCP a group of pedo's you'd regret it within 24 hours.

> This is absolutely nothing compared to what China did to the Uyghurs

which is absolutely nothing compared to what they did to Gaza.

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