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Who's afraid of Chinese models?

stratechery.com

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Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a good faith question? Please check the site guidelines.

It is, and certainly relevant (although perhaps inconvenient) considering the recent elections in China. Aren't shifting priorities a side effect of free elections?

> Aren't shifting priorities a side effect of free elections?

It can be, but you're describing an instance of fossil fuel lobbying and transparent corruption: https://www.statista.com/statistics/788056/us-oil-and-gas-lo...

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Russian, I deeply appreciate this. In Russia, it seemed obvious to even the most parochial peasant that there was propaganda, while in America, the vast majority of the society not only fails to consider the possibility, but is cholerically allergic to the very idea. Edit: recognising that there is propaganda != knowing what is and isn't propaganda. That's all I meant.

The American government has propaganda but it really sucks at it. All the people skilled in manipulating behavior work at our ad agencies, and hence our actual propaganda is mostly "Use this detergent! Take this drug! Drive this car!"

Lol, someone completely missed the point… American propaganda is such a part of the culture, it gets barely noticed. Even movies that has military equipment, the military gets to have heavy input towards positive depictions of american military. US military has paid millions in marketing to all the sports organizations for promoting the military. Etc etc. This is just one aspect of the propaganda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93entertainment...

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#803
post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I doubt that any of the current American AI corporations get regular dossiers of desirable responses to sensitive political topics from Washington and implement them. That's completely true. What happens is that you get hit with a wall of bureaucratic threats and nonsense by the government out of nowhere, and usually for some unrelated matter. It's like a high level version of getting pulled over for not using your…

Non-sense. In China, you obey. There is no way to challenge the orders in courts or even with your local party official. It's written into law and companies that disobey are shutdown or taken over by a party loyalist and the management is disappeared. > bureaucratic threats and nonsense by the government out of nowhere You can challenge these in courts. There is a free press you can go to. You can go to social media…

[deleted]

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why I said they didn’t do it openly. Also when you say it’s a matter of degree, where do you draw the line? It’s all just different shades of corruption. Also didn’t Biden pardon his own son before he left the office?

Saying it is a matter of degree is an attempt to make what the current administration is doing is similar to what prior admins did. They are not. They are corrupt to the core. As for Biden he pardoned his son beacuse of a MAGA witchhunt.

That’s exactly the point. You justify Biden’s actions saying it’s a MAGA witch hunt and Republicans justify Trump’s action blaming it on democrats. Both parties fails to see what is wrong and right according to the rule of law objectively. The sad part is that all those actions by politicians from both parties negatively affect the normal people, however the irony is that those people would still defend them instead of calling a spade a spade

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#805

I think a simple experiment is enough to understand why one would have some concern with a state-censored AI model : Just try asking them about atrocities committed by their state[1]. [1] : https://imgur.com/gallery/ai-models-on-atrocities-B7DKUXc

Yes and no? I've had the same experience with asking about Tienanmen square -but then when asking a Deepseek v4 model (and confirmed by asking the chat on the deepseek site) about the "laying flat" movement it gave me a detailed answer that was unexpectedly sympathetic to the movement.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#806
post #90

What makes the Chinese models this good? I don't believe it's distillation alone. This from OpenAi's Head of Strategic Futures "Some observations on Kimi: It's a very good model! I don't think its performance can be explained away by distillation or anything like that" https://x.com/deanwball/status/2078133895766114412 China's strategy of spending billions on training these models and open sourcing these models away…

> China's strategy of spending billions on training these models and open sourcing these models away is strategic - they want to kill the US LLM industry at any cost. Why is it when Anthropic and OpenAI spend billions trying to beat each other it is competition , but when the Chinese companies do it then it is trying to kill the US LLM industry at any cost. The US federal government spends billions in subsidies via t…

I am not defending the US LLM industry or the government, all I am saying is it's similar to an arms race. I did not suggest anywhere that what China is doing is illegitimate. China has state supported capitalism, and they will do whatever it takes to prop up the AI industry. Anthropic and OpenAI want the same protections.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Designing and creating an LLM from nothing is a monumental feat of Engineering and 'value add'. Copying something is not. Programming Microsoft Word is value add, copying the code is not. Copying design ... there are some question marks there. It's extremely easy to understand at it's core. What makes it hard, is that faux intellectuals like to deconstruct ideas at the margins, and have those critiques stand in for r…

they all just copied the Transformers paper anyway

If all it took was 'copying the transformers paper' then why aren't there 1000 SOTA foundries?

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#808
Datapoint from the cheap end of the market: I run local models on a couple of Orange Pi SBCs and a decade-old Optiplex with no GPU. What runs usably on that class of hardware is almost entirely Chinese open weights — Qwen's MoE builds (35B total, ~3B active) are the only thing that gives me acceptable speed on CPU, with Gemma as about the only western exception. I evaluated Kimi too and ruled it out purely on size.

Whatever the strategic picture is at the top, at the bottom of the market "weights you can download and run on hardware you already own" is the whole ballgame, and right now that's mostly Alibaba's to lose.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#809
post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ahead of every large developed country Because those are the only ones that can move the needle on climate change.

You didn't bother to do the search and find out how many industrialized nations are also higher emitters per capita.

I said large developed countries.

No one cares if Iceland emits more co2 per capita. They have This isn’t about fairness, this is about whether the actions of the leaders of China care about impacting climate change.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sir, given what's happening in the world these days, I cannot really tell which nation you meant by your statement :D

Really? Ok, name list of rogue aggressive nations that are continuously attacking other nations both allies and foes, and I tell you which one he meant...

Are you including aggressive economic attacks -such as weaponizing tariffs or are you only counting direct military acts?

I'm pretty sure the U.S. has done both over the last couple of years -but I'd love to be proven wrong. :)

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