Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Who's afraid of Chinese models?

stratechery.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

531–540 of 965 posts

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#531

Post by inigyou »

bluegatty wrote: post #187
nemomarx wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so if the chinese models are used everyday, do they become a value add? Like what's the line you're drawing here. Amount of value it creates?

Designing and creating an LLM from nothing is a monumental feat of Engineering and 'value add'. Copying something is not. Programming Microsoft Word is value add, copying the code is not. Copying design ... there are some question marks there. It's extremely easy to understand at it's core. What makes it hard, is that faux intellectuals like to deconstruct ideas at the margins, and have those critiques stand in for r…

they all just copied the Transformers paper anyway

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#532

Post by inigyou »

kinj28 wrote: post #253

I am afraid — if Chinese models go mainstream it has a clear way of pushing its narrative way beyond its otherwise borders. More like a Trojan horse it is for the Chinese. Here is a quick example of how Chinese deepseeks agent works kn its underlying model) when asked a tough question https://x.com/jinen83/status/2079406993979383902?s=46&t=D7hQ...

https://xcancel.com/jinen83/status/2079406993979383902

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#533

Post by inigyou »

Gareth321 wrote: post #409
TripolitianFish wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d love to live in the USA you’re talking about friend. This is just oriental despotism paranoia, whatever cutsie repetition slogan you come up with is not a serious argument.

It's not a secret that China is run as an authoritarian dictatorship. Xi Jinping cannot be ousted in an election. He appointed himself for life, and regularly purges anyone who might usurp his power. They don't have a functioning democracy. Are you seriously disputing any of this? None of this excuses issues with American democracy.

Why are you responding to a comment about how bad the USA is by talking about how bad China is? Do two wrongs make a right?

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#534

Post by NekkoDroid »

khuey wrote: post #290
nekusar wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Already is possible. On a machine with 32GB ram, and NO gpu. Just need a large SSD or NVME. Streams from disk to memory. https://github.com/JustVugg/colibri

Painfully slow tok/s though.

Isn't it more s/tok?

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#535

Post by inigyou »

reisse wrote: post #472
viktorcode wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is misleading; the chat is censored, the model is not. You can download the model, run locally and ask the same questions to see the difference.

This is not true. Both model and chat are censored; the resistance to answer some questions is baked into the weights. This is not specific to Chinese models though, Western ones are also censored, but in different topics.

Western model censorship example: https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/13fz0i4/chatgpt_...

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#536

Post by mc32 »

traceroute66 wrote: post #519
throwaw12 wrote: post #486

Lets do "who's afraid of US models" version: * Me, as an individual, because I might not be able to pay price hikes, because my revenue (salary) is much lower than what they want and I can't support my expenses via huge bank loans. * Again, me as a new entrant to the industry, LLMs are basically pay-to-play games, again related to price hikes, new entrants might not be able to afford paying those prices 24/7 - which…

> Any non-US company, US can block the models which can disrupt the whole business. And read your data, see CLOUD act, PATRIOT act etc. etc. No longer a theoretical risk in today's US political environment.

Hasn’t that been the assumption since Carnivore? Also we tapped European pols phones back in ‘12, was it? Though it’s not like the Eu are a bunch of innocents either…

It’s not a new thing. Industrial espionage has always been a thing as well. So has bribery (for deals) been a thing especially by euro concerns.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#537

Post by inigyou »

throw64259 wrote: post #502
culi wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So all the models you tried disagreed with the United Nations ruling? In international law, that is the ultimate authority of what is/isn't a genocide. It's objectively, legally speaking, a genocide.

The UN isn’t a magical oracle of “Truth” - any more than an LLM is. It’s a political body, with easily provable biases, and topics you can’t trust it on.

The UN is just someone easy to point to. The full fact is that everyone who's gone looking to see whether or not it's a genocide, including the UN, has discovered that it's a genocide. There's no ambiguity, yet the model is pretending there is.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#539

Post by inigyou »

odiroot wrote: post #483
xlmnxp wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing happen for western models, try to ask about Gaza genocide and see for what side it will stand

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#Soviet_Union_and_...

When debunking that X is better than Y it isn't a fallacy to point out how bad X is.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#540

Post by inigyou »

michaelt wrote: post #358
gmerc wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s glossing over the reason they are not: 90% profit margin of Nvidia. Power is only a small part, single digit, it will eventually matter but does not really today. What is the cost of AI? The single largest ingredient is Nvidia profit margin. Huawei accelerators are not as efficiency yet, but they don’t nearly extract as much margin. Why would future revenue stay with the labs given this situation? This whole thi…

> Power is only a small part, single digit, it will eventually matter but does not really today. Sorta yes, sorta no. A single 5090 consumes 450W - at Californian energy prices of $0.38 per kWh that's $0.17 per hour. And the card itself costs $4100 on amazon. So after 2.75 years running at full power 24/7 you'll have spent more on electricity than on the card. I would have thought most data centres being built today…

GPU design life is commonly cited as about 3 years. The main driver is not physical degradation of the cards but the expectation they'll become obsolete with newer cards.
Post reply on HN