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“We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

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Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#121
post #61

honestly if they did what he said they did, it seems like it would be cheaper just to train your own model from the get go

I haven't seen that point yet, and I was looking for it. Presumably Moonshot paid for that Fable access and Anthropic got paid. How much of the frontier model revenue stream is supported by paid distillation traffic? Obv paid kimi services are eating that on the other side, but money is changing hands at every stage.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#124
post #55

So what is the issue here? Distilling is still fair, on the same level like Anthropic scraped copyright protected material for their training. So here robbers are blaming robbers? These claims are just pointless, everytime

I'm by no means taking the side of the AI companies, but it's possible that Anthropic "added value" to the data they harvested. Stealing that does seem kind of uncool.

Regardless, it was always inevitable—will continue to happen.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#126
post #43

Didn't they just pay a fine for stealing all those books?

$1.5 billion fine for downloading 7 million books from LibGen and other pirate torrents.

That's also the case where the judge ruled that training AI models on books could qualify as fair use, but storing millions of pirated works in a central internal library without licensing constituted copyright infringement. It will be interesting to see if courts consider training on data distilled from a model fair use. Assuming the allegation is true. Someone distilling data from a cloud-hosted model:

- Paid the model creator to use a publicly available product.

- Never copied or even had access to the model source code or weights.

- Created a derivative work based on the model's responses to their particular input.

- Trained their own model on the distilled output

That distilled output is arguably a collaborative creation because a distiller's prompts are their own unique intellectual property. So they never pirated anything. I'm struggling to see how distillation is copyright infringement. At most it seems to be a paying customer violating one of the license terms, perhaps akin to a "no commercial use of derivative works" clause. But in the case of giving away an open weight model, is it even 'commercial use'?

I guess if the distiller asserts copyright on the weights but gives them away, it's technically 'commercial' but even if they can win that argument, they're left with zero direct damages and suing for some value delta based on the alleged revenue they were deprived of. Is that delta the difference between the distilled model existing and the next best non-distilled open weight model existing? And then they have to collect damages from a portion of the revenue of third parties who commercially served that free model?

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#128
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what is the issue here? The issue seems to be the US only likes competition when it is winning. Markets in Asia are meant for cheap labor and resources, they're not meant to actually compete. /s

[flagged]

> a bad actor that leverages Ip theft wholesale.

It's like they've read the history of the US and how it got to where it is in the first place.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#129
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I demand my right to pay 3x more for AI access. cf https://www.reddit.com/r/codex/comments/1uyj6pq/kimi_k3_is_1...

But nobody really pays the 3x (ie. api) rates, except for enterprises. Everyone else are using the consumption plans, which are heavily discounted[1], possibly cheaper than even the chinese models, which don't do consumption plan discounts. Even in your linked reddit thread, the OP agreed with this sentiment. [1] https://x.com/SemiAnalysis_/status/2064815044085318040

I have paid API rates. I needed AI to cleanup file space and I didn't want to gamble with the alignment of Chinese models.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#130
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I demand my right to pay 3x more for AI access. cf https://www.reddit.com/r/codex/comments/1uyj6pq/kimi_k3_is_1...

But nobody really pays the 3x (ie. api) rates, except for enterprises. Everyone else are using the consumption plans, which are heavily discounted[1], possibly cheaper than even the chinese models, which don't do consumption plan discounts. Even in your linked reddit thread, the OP agreed with this sentiment. [1] https://x.com/SemiAnalysis_/status/2064815044085318040

Psh. Enterprises. There can't be more than a couple of them out there.
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