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Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

blog.ericgoldman.org

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Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#511

Post by rationalist »

pixl97 wrote: post #480
snozolli wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And those groups still have lower rates of abuse than Schools What evidence do you have of this? The only sources I can find that would even vaguely support your claim switch to talking about physical abuse in schools, or sexual assault committed by fellow students. To be clear, we're discussing the sexual assault of children by adults here. We're not talking about physical abuse, nor are we talking about assault by…

Ya I personally don't believe it myself. Schools have legal demands on reporting. Every church I had went to when I was young covered CSA up and ensured the perpetrators were never brought to justice.

Flat earthers do not believe the world is round, yet it is. Feel free to read my comment I posted hours ago, with a link.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#512

Post by giantg2 »

KaiserPro wrote: post #479
giantg2 wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning firearms isn't "dead cheap" if you have 400 million in existence. The enforcement would cost a lot, even if you didn't perform a mandatory buyback program. Germany doesn't have an outright ban on guns, but strict regulation. Running the regulation costs money. A note about copying - you have to look at the culture to see if how things will work. Germany has vastly different socioeconomics than the US, and soc…

> will switch to knives and screwdrivers as we see in the UK London, with a population of ~8 million has the same murder rate as new Orleans, which is 300k people. Not as in x murders per 100k, but as in total murders in a city. In terms of knife crime the USA has a slightly _higher_ rate of knife crime than the UK. Bear in mind the UK counts attacks with knifes as knife crimes, where as the states only appear to inc…

If we want to compare cities to New Orleans, then you might as well compare them them to Birmingham. Even with firearms being banned you have a murder rate of 28/100k vs 40/100k. Violent crime between the cities is actually equal at 55/1k.

Yeah, stabbing deaths UK vs US is about half (175/70M UK vs 1600/350M US). But if comparing at the national level, 360/100k US vs 1200/100k UK.

So it really comes down to each person's systems thinking approach and which stats they care about.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#513

Post by giantg2 »

wickedsight wrote: post #386
Spooky23 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CSAM issue is both very real and abused by politicians. When I did some work with a police agency, it was explained to me that there’s a pattern of escalation with people and they tend to accumulate collections and many escalate to actual behavior. The detectives assigned to this work tend to not last long, and the horrific nature of the crime affects them. Like all rape, it’s a combo of control and dopamine. The…

This is correct. Also, the people who produce CSAM usually don't just stop, so tracking down material, especially new and unknown, is one of the most important ways to stop active abuse. Also because the material is actual proof and many (C)SA cases fail due to lack of exactly that. This doesn't mean I agree with active scanning of things like iCloud, effectively making everyone a suspect, but counter to what people…

I completely get tracking CSAM to get to the creator to stop the abuse. But how does that work for fictional works that are considered CSAM?

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#514

Post by giantg2 »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #492
inigyou wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the material is actual proof How do you square this with fictional material being illegal?

IIRC, courts in the US ruled it's legal to produce entirely fictional art depicting children in explicit scenes, so long as no real minors were involved in production.

Just Google "arrested for AI generated CSAM" and you will find tons of cases, including police officers as perps. Looks like the Protect act of 2003 make it illegal if basically looks real enough (cartoon ok, AI generated realism is apparently not).

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#515

Post by [deleted] »

SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #410
belorn wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we say that handguns cause more deaths than assault rifles, is that normalized towards ownership? Data and statistics is as always dependent on how and what you measure.

Not to get too off track, but it's actually an interesting case in that it's one of those where weighting for prevalence of ownership wouldn't matter for the purpose of discovering the more effective measure. If you did something to restrict handguns you would prevent more death than restricting other firearms. Also, not that it has any bearing on what I said, but I'm decidedly pro-gun for any repliers who want to fo…

[deleted]

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#516

Post by rationalist »

phoghed wrote: post #509
rationalist wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just give the receipts. Just read my last comment I posted two hours before you posted yours? > you’re ignoring as well. You're assuming facts not in evidence. > We could say that rate should be examined per hour because a kid will spend 30 hours per week at school vs... "Don't worry Timmy, even though you were molested at school, because you're forced to go there every (week)day and spend more time there than chur…

> I already gave the "receipts". Stop trying to gaslight me. Not to me and not when I asked. And you just applied waaaay more effort than it would have taken. > Don't worry Timmy, even though you were molested at school, because you're forced to go there every (week)day and spend more time there than church, Boy Scouts, etc, you statistically had less of a chance per hour of being molested. No, but as a parent it bec…

> you just applied waaaay more effort than it would have taken.

I have no idea what you mean by that. I'm guessing it's some kind of jab that didn't land.

> as a parent it becomes part of your risk assessment when deciding if you want your kid to become an altar boy.

"Timmy, remember when I told you that you should keep your private parts private, to only let the doctor touch them while wearing gloves during at the doctor's office, and to let me know if anyone touches them, tries to touch them, stares at them, or asks to see or touch them; to let me know right? That still stands. The robe goes over your clothes, you don't need to undress at church or at school. And do you remember how if someone tells you to keep a secret from me, and it's not something like a birthday surprise for me, that you should tell me. God is not going to be mad at you if you do what's right, God will be mad at someone if they try to take advantage of you, no matter what their position is."

Yes, everything has a risk assessment. Singling out a more rare risk shows that you have a bias. It has been very obvious for a while that you and a few other users have a bias. I don't know why, but I hope you heal or get better/smarter.

Being ganged up on by you all is tiring. Anyone who doesn't have a bias can see this comment chain for what it is. I'm going to move on with my life, and if you want to be happier with your lot, you should too.

Best regards, rationalist

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#517

Post by greedo »

Gareth321 wrote: post #403
one33seven wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitler was elected too (not saying he is Hitler)

Hitler was not elected Chancellor by the German public. Germany had/has a mixed-member proportional system, meaning that coalitions may form after everyone votes President Paul von Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor on 30 January 1933 after negotiations among conservative politicians who believed they could control him. The Nazi Party was the largest party, but it won only 33.1% of the vote in the final free R…

Your comment implies that Hitler seized power despite a lack of popularity. The historical record shows that Hitler was wildly popular in Germany, even up to the end of WW2.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#518

Post by fluoridation »

rationalist wrote: post #508
fluoridation wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No one who actually was a Scout would call their Scoutmaster a "troop manager". I was a scout and I natively speak Spanish, so I never learned what the ranks are called in English (and after nearly 30 years I've pretty much completely forgotten them in Spanish too, if I'm being honest). Are you going to call me a liar too?

Wow, you all do not stop. You've been grinding your ax so long now, it could cut a hair. If you were a Scout, you would know your ax should not be that sharp.

Not an answer to my question. If you feel ganged up on, perhaps it's time to stop posting.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#519

Post by summerlight »

giantg2 wrote: post #198

Maybe my perception is off, but it seems like there's a huge push by the legislature and some people to do anything and everything to prevent CSAM, yet almost nothing seems to be done to prevent CSA. For CSAM, there's all sorts of monitoring, scanning, identify capturing, etc. But it's all after abuse has taken place, and it seems that many of the people actually arrested are arrested for CSAM and not CSA. This has e…

There is a pretty simple yet disappointing reason. CSAM is much easier to investigate and prosecute. You got evidence, you prosecute. Almost guaranteed conviction. You can even enforce big tech to implement proactive monitoring systems.

Compared to this, CSA is much harder. Every case is different. You have to do due diligence. And it is extremely hard to proactively detect them. Careful criminals will destroy all evidence. The number of case itself is smaller. And there is a good chance to lose in the court and for prosecutors this is a clearly risky move. Good ol' criminal investigation is expensive. There is a structural reason not to prioritize them.

The whole incentive structure is broken. The only thing to fix this is external pressure, but even it does not work these days. Exposing CSA is a rare event but media needs constant, sensitive headlines so they tend to treat CSA and CSAM like the same thing. Hence external pressures do not work, and even worse those work in a wrong way. This creates a bad feedback loop.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#520

Post by gradschool »

giantg2 wrote: post #198

Maybe my perception is off, but it seems like there's a huge push by the legislature and some people to do anything and everything to prevent CSAM, yet almost nothing seems to be done to prevent CSA. For CSAM, there's all sorts of monitoring, scanning, identify capturing, etc. But it's all after abuse has taken place, and it seems that many of the people actually arrested are arrested for CSAM and not CSA. This has e…

> This has even extended to fictional CSAM such as AI generated stories and pictures.

Peripheral to your comment, there is an argument against AI generated CSAM that no one seems to be making so allow me. AI will do the same for CSAM as it has already done for copyright laundering. That is, it will enable its distributors to train their models on real CSAM while obscuring the training material. A legal regime that permits unrestricted distribution of AI generated CSAM incentivizes actual abuse as a source of training material. If one opposes legal prohibitions on free speech grounds, then at a minimum there should be an audit requirement incumbent on AI generated CSAM distributors to document their process in sufficient detail as to establish that they haven't used actual CSAM for training, similarly to the way porn distributors are required to document that their models are of legal age.

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