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The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

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Re: The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

#351

Post by yeputons »

eesmith wrote: post #329
whimsicalism wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A national ID system (standard in effectively all European countries) is table stakes for state capacity. I find the RealID opposition baffling.

The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. (Apparently Andorra doesn't either.) You might consider it part of the Anglosphere mentality as Canada, the US, Australia, the Bahamas, and New Zealand don't have national ID. I've never understood the problem that RealID is supposed to solve. How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identi…

> The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages.

You have to bring in loads of other random documents to get a passport, for example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44408872

To reliably prove your age (e.g. in a store or a concert venue), you have to get a provisional driving license. If you are not qualified (maybe still disqualified to drive, or eyesight problems), tough luck, I'm not aware of any other government-issued photo ID in the UK. Foreigners previously had BRPs, but they are not issued since 2025, everything is electronic now.

There is also the "PASS" scheme where private providers (like banks) can issue plastic cards with photos, but I've heard they are regularly rejected by various venues as proof of age and/or identity, there is no legal requirement to accept them, just a recommendation. And I can imagine non-UK entities care about these about as much as they do about ISIC. TSA was definitely unhappy when I tried using ISIC about ten years ago for a US domestic flight.

Re: The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

#352

Post by axus »

aboardRat4 wrote: post #342
coldtea wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how's that been working out for you? Not asking whether "reducing state capacity" helps with that. Asking how's that "reducing" going.

Yeah, I'm also curious. The USA has one of the biggest and most convoluted systems of government in the world, one of the only few where people actually need lawyers to navigate it.

The states certifying their own elections is the next convoluted system in the way of unrestrained tyranny, after states controlling identity verification.

Government getting in the way is useful when it impedes other parts of government.

We're definitely going in the wrong direction, but it's been slower than Russia, Turkey, Austria, and others which are following well-worn paths. And the consequences for the world are so much worse if it happens in America.

Re: The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

#353

Post by eesmith »

yeputons wrote: post #351
eesmith wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. (Apparently Andorra doesn't either.) You might consider it part of the Anglosphere mentality as Canada, the US, Australia, the Bahamas, and New Zealand don't have national ID. I've never understood the problem that RealID is supposed to solve. How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identi…

> The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. You have to bring in loads of other random documents to get a passport, for example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44408872 To reliably prove your age (e.g. in a store or a concert venue), you have to get a provisional driving license. If you are not qualified (maybe still disqualified to drive, or eyesight pro…

From that link, 'All this keeps the game interesting and fun, taking weeks and sometimes months to complete'.

Some people in the US take longer than that to get Real ID. Like, elderly black people born in the Jim Crow era where birth records simply weren't kept for them. https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/florida-woman-says-she-ca... , or a missing 50-year-old marriage record - https://local12.com/news/nation-world/elderly-womans-real-id... .

Are you proving your age for a store or a concert venue for alcohol reasons? Don't people age out once they look over 25? Or do venues check for other reasons?

I've read about the big backlash when a national ID scheme for the UK is proposed, so I presume the benefits aren't all that high.

Like, when you check into a hotel, do you have to show ID? https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g186216-i15-k1095345... tells me that it's uncommon. While in the US, I nearly always have to show ID for an overnight room.

Or, in many place in the US, everyone is IDed for alcohol, even if you are 70 years old, which annoys a lot of people who are clearly old enough to drink. Even better, since US privacy laws are so poor, these ID checks also gather demographic information, identify 'high-value customers', and collaborate with other places to ban people -- rather like the facial recognition systems you all have in the UK.

Maybe Brits want to avoid normalizing more id checks?

Re: The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

#354

Post by ninalanyon »

rafram wrote: post #282
miki123211 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. In fact, you have to do it twice; once to apply and once to receive it. In Poland at least, the queues are often a few weeks long, and you have to book online in advance. If it's summer season and you need to travel soon, you usually have to go to some office in Buttfuckville at the other end of the country to get a reasonable date. Passport office hunting is an established practice for people who need one ASAP.…

The process in the US is you open an online form, type in your details, and upload a JPEG of your face! Then you receive a passport in the mail a few weeks later! I would say that is a lot less painful than the Polish process.

Same in the UK.

Re: The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

#355

Post by eesmith »

aboardRat4 wrote: post #339
eesmith wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. (Apparently Andorra doesn't either.) You might consider it part of the Anglosphere mentality as Canada, the US, Australia, the Bahamas, and New Zealand don't have national ID. I've never understood the problem that RealID is supposed to solve. How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identi…

>How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant? They can only accept them before IDs are implemented of course, as a poor substitute. After national id documents are standardised, it's just them, nothing else counts.

That still doesn't tell me what problem it is supposed to solve.

Re: The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

#356

Post by matchstickman23 »

cramer4next wrote: post #276
tjbrock wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you been to an airport yet since it became mandatory? They actually have signs around stating it. I had similar thoughts as the GP about that.

Not for roughly the last 6 months. I have been using my passport because my old drivers license doesn't expire until next year. I'll have to look closer or read the signs then. Just never noticed that.

Yeah, I've been using my Nexus card, but I've flown with people who forgot their passport and didn't have RealID and they just have you go to a website, pay $45, and show them you've paid and you're on your way. It's very secure :)

Re: The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

#357

Post by aboardRat4 »

eesmith wrote: post #355
aboardRat4 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant? They can only accept them before IDs are implemented of course, as a poor substitute. After national id documents are standardised, it's just them, nothing else counts.

That still doesn't tell me what problem it is supposed to solve.

Isn't it nice to have a guaranteed way to prove that (1) you are you, that (2) you are a citizen, that (3) you are over 18, and that (4) you live where you live?

Guaranteed in the sense that (a) it's available instantly, (b) everyone _has to_ accept it, because it's universal.

So you don't have keep paid utility bills with your address, just show your ID card. You don't have to "register as a voter" ever again, just show your ID before getting a ballot.

If you are worried that your tenant might happen to be an illegal migrant, and would risk being deported instead of paying rent next month, just make him show an ID before signing a rental agreement.

Re: The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

#358

Post by aboardRat4 »

axus wrote: post #352
aboardRat4 wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm also curious. The USA has one of the biggest and most convoluted systems of government in the world, one of the only few where people actually need lawyers to navigate it.

The states certifying their own elections is the next convoluted system in the way of unrestrained tyranny, after states controlling identity verification. Government getting in the way is useful when it impedes other parts of government. We're definitely going in the wrong direction, but it's been slower than Russia, Turkey, Austria, and others which are following well-worn paths. And the consequences for the world…

>The states certifying their own elections is the next convoluted system in the way of unrestrained tyranny, after states controlling identity verification.

And what stops the US from mandating that States provide their citizens with a universal ID of an agreed form? Just like with the elections?

Re: The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

#359

Post by CrimsonRain »

aiisjustanif wrote: post #315
CrimsonRain wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some amount of surveillance leads to a better society. See SG. Flock is needed for current USA. That's why idiots are up against it.

Please explain why Flock is needed.

Please visit Singapore.

Re: The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

#360

Post by markdown »

yeputons wrote: post #350
markdown wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one). Since US-issued visas are multiple entry for 10yrs, it's relatively not a hassle at all.

If you're lucky with your citizenship. Others get 3yrs or 1yr max. And that's after administrative processing if you're unlucky, which might take years: https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2020/11/09/a-us-visa-in-937-days... And for some passports in the last, say, six years, the probability is significantly increased. There is no official information as far as I know, just some anecdotical evidence from forums. And before a…

Yes, I know it depends on citizenship. In my country, on top of all the hurdles you mentioned, you have to deposit about $7,000 USD into a US government account as a guarantee that you won't overstay. You get that back when you return to your country. That's new Trump policy that hopefully doesn't outlast his presidency.
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