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New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

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Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#61

Post by maccard »

unkeen wrote: post #35
iso1631 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It belongs to the people who live there. While you may think places like Point Roberts should be forcibly moved to Canada, or Ceuta should be forcibly moved to Morocco, I'm of the opinion of self determination, as is the global view based on the United Nations, who recognizes self-determination as the right of all peoples to freely determine their political status and pursue their economic, social, and cultural devel…

If it belongs to the people who live there, why does Britain have any say in their matters?

Gibraltar have had two referendums on whether they want to be a part of Spain or the UK, and they have voted with an absolutely insane majority to choose to be part of the UK in both cases. This isn't like Brexit, or Scotland's IndyRef - there was a 96% turnout and a 99% vote in favour of the UK in 1967, and an 88% turnout with a 99% vote in favour again in 2002.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#62

Post by manarth »

unkeen wrote: post #35
iso1631 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It belongs to the people who live there. While you may think places like Point Roberts should be forcibly moved to Canada, or Ceuta should be forcibly moved to Morocco, I'm of the opinion of self determination, as is the global view based on the United Nations, who recognizes self-determination as the right of all peoples to freely determine their political status and pursue their economic, social, and cultural devel…

If it belongs to the people who live there, why does Britain have any say in their matters?

Because the people who live there overwhelmingly (98%–99%) vote in favour of remaining British.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Gibraltar_sovereignty_ref...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gibraltar_sovereignty_ref...

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#63

Post by unkeen »

rmunn wrote: post #54
unkeen wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it belongs to the people who live there, why does Britain have any say in their matters?

Why does Britain have any say in the people who live in, say, Liverpool? Because that's historically been British territory. So what's the difference? Only real difference I can see is length of history (a few hundred years vs. nearly a thousand years). But as far as I'm concerned, a few hundred years vs. nearly a thousand years doesn't make much difference. I'd argue that any territory that has belonged to country X…

So you’re suggesting amnesia and ignoring the fact that Gibraltar wasn’t a blank spot on the map before it was annexed by the British. I think that’s a very one-sided view.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#64

Post by maccard »

nephihaha wrote: post #60
iso1631 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And places like London, Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol, York, Warwick voted 60% to remain but still got taken out. Places like Oxford and Cambridge were over 70% remain. What should have happened was the ability for any person to retain their European citizenship, or if under 18 choose on their 18th birthday. Then the remainers would not have had their rights stripped away. The catch being if more than 50% of adults…

Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain. Wales was more mixed. Northern Ireland got the best deal of the three. Thanks to the Good Friday Agreement, people there can get Irish (and therefore EU) passports. This is a perennial issue in Scottish politics, but Scotland, unlike Northern Ireland, and maybe Kent, does not have a land border with the EU. My personal hope was that the UK would remain in the EU, but bot…

The Good Friday deal doesn't entitle everyone born in NI to Irish Citizenship. (anymore). It's a little more complicated than that for people born in the last 20 years.

> Since 1 January 2005, if you are born in Northern Ireland, you can claim Irish citizenship if your parent (or parents) are either British or Irish citizens, or one of them has lived on the island of Ireland for at least 3 out of the 4 years immediately before your birth.

> unlike Northern Ireland, and maybe Kent, does not have a land border with the EU.

NI's Land Border with Ireland is a "special" border. Ireland isn't in the Schengen Area (IIRC Cyprus is the only other EU country that isn't Schengen), and as a result of that has passport checks at all arrival areas - this is _because_ of the border with NI already. It was already special cased, and thankfully hasn't ended up with a UN buffer zone as a result of this mess.

That said, I agree with you 98%!

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#65

Post by darkwater »

rjsw wrote: post #45
darkwater wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like we have a lot of British "nationalists" leavers downvoting everything here. I mean, you comment is basically a fact: Brexit implied losing Schengen, it was part of it from day 0. Putting back Gibraltar in Schengen is a defeat for Brexit supporters. EDIT: not Schengen, sorry, although I'm pretty sure I just used my national (European) ID to go to London many many years ago and not my passport.

The UK was not in Schengen when it was a member of the EU.

Thanks for the correction, edited the comment

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#66

Post by Laurel1234 »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #59
Laurel1234 wrote: post #4

It'd be even easier if Gibraltar is returned to Spain to whom it belongs.

Not according to the people who live there. Or in fact, Spain, who ceded it to the UK hundreds of years ago. Or do you think Spain has a legal right based on geographic proximity to enforce a culture on those people despite existing treaties, laws, culture and democracy?

> to enforce a culture on those people despite existing treaties, laws, culture and democracy?

Britain has been doing this to Ireland for the last 800 years. You still continue to hold their land, oppress its people and do your best to exterminate what shred is left of their language.

If Chinggis himself rose from the grave, I'd care a lot more about his thoughts on these matters than a Brit's.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#67

Post by maccard »

Laurel1234 wrote: post #41
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fisheries and oil, have changed the view No. The reason was not economic, the reason was that the government polled the people living there and found that support for remaining British is ~100%. Oil was found later, the fisheries were never worth maintaining the island for.

> No. The reason was not economic, the reason was that the government polled the people living there and found that support for remaining British is ~100%. The Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk also voted to be part of Russia and not Ukraine, crazy stuff.

Are you genuinely comparing the referendums in Gibraltar to the current situation in Ukraine?

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#68

Post by maccard »

darkwater wrote: post #39
phoronixrly wrote: post #8

> After years of negotiation involving Spain, the EU and the UK, the solution has been to align Gibraltar with the European customs union and the Schengen European free travel zone. > Travellers arriving from countries outside Schengen, such as the UK, will have to show their passports to Gibraltarian and Spanish officials at the territory's airport and port. So an L for the UK as Gibraltar has again freedom of movem…

Looks like we have a lot of British "nationalists" leavers downvoting everything here. I mean, you comment is basically a fact: Brexit implied losing Schengen, it was part of it from day 0. Putting back Gibraltar in Schengen is a defeat for Brexit supporters. EDIT: not Schengen, sorry, although I'm pretty sure I just used my national (European) ID to go to London many many years ago and not my passport.

> Brexit implied losing Schengen, it was part of it from day 0. Putting back Gibraltar in Schengen.

Gibraltar isn't going into the Schengen, it's just going to follow all of the rules of the Schengen area. It's always(?) required a passport check anyway. It's definitely semantics, though!

> EDIT: not Schengen, sorry, although I'm pretty sure I just used my national (European) ID to go to London many many years ago and not my passport.

You could travel with ID cards pre-brexit. The Schengen area has _no_ checks on the borders, so you don't even need an ID card. (However, the place you're travelling to/from may require you to carry one).

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#69

Post by Cyph0n »

froidpink wrote: post #46
Cyph0n wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would also be great if Ceuta and Melilla returned back to Morocco, and if Western Sahara in turn gained its independence from Morocco. As an aside, I have always found it ironic how Spain continuously whines about Gibraltar while doing the exact same thing to Morocco. At the very least, Spain was smart/lucky enough to lobby the UN early on to not include Ceuta and Melilla in the decolonization list.

Ceuta was never Moroccan. In fact, Morocco didn't even exist when Ceuta became part of Portugal first (1415) and then Spain (either 1580 or 1640). Ceuta was a part of the Spanish Visigoth kingdom in the 7th Century before the Islamic Conquest (which for some reason we don't call colonisation). Ceuta has always had a strong connection with the rulers of Iberia. Gibraltar, on the other hand, was just lost in the War of…

Yep, it’s always justified by the fact that Morocco never existed and therefore has no claim.

But applying this logic universally would change the world map, not to mention that this justification ignores the fact that the concept of a nation state is relatively new as a norm.

Regardless, I and many others will continue to ridicule Spain’s paradoxical position on Gibraltar. Hopefully a just resolution is realized for all parties at some point in the future.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#70

Post by rgblambda »

iainmerrick wrote: post #21
phoronixrly wrote: post #8

> After years of negotiation involving Spain, the EU and the UK, the solution has been to align Gibraltar with the European customs union and the Schengen European free travel zone. > Travellers arriving from countries outside Schengen, such as the UK, will have to show their passports to Gibraltarian and Spanish officials at the territory's airport and port. So an L for the UK as Gibraltar has again freedom of movem…

It's really ridiculous how little discussion there was about places like Gibraltar and Northern Ireland before the Brexit vote. Looks like NI voted ~55% remain and Gibraltar ~95% remain, but too bad, England voted ~53% leave, so screw all you little overseas territories with actual land borders who are most directly impacted.

As someone from one of the territories mentioned, it was frustrating in the run-up to the referendum, and immediately after it, watching the local media try to get the view of English voters as to how they thought that was supposed to work.

The impression I got was leave voters either thought it would all work out somehow, or that they cared so little about the non GB territories to the point that they felt they didn't need to address to question.

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