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New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

bbc.com

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Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#41

Post by Laurel1234 »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #29
ggm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A reminder the british government explored handing the Falklands over to Argentina before the war. Fisheries and oil, have changed the view but in times last it was not inconceivable to transfer authority.

> Fisheries and oil, have changed the view No. The reason was not economic, the reason was that the government polled the people living there and found that support for remaining British is ~100%. Oil was found later, the fisheries were never worth maintaining the island for.

> No. The reason was not economic, the reason was that the government polled the people living there and found that support for remaining British is ~100%.

The Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk also voted to be part of Russia and not Ukraine, crazy stuff.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#42

Post by kdheiwns »

Pragmata wrote: post #32
kdheiwns wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Forcing those people out or seizing the land from them would be the definition of colonialism, yes. And exclaves exist all around the world. Geography has never really meant anything in national terms. Spain has a piece of land on Africa and I don't think they plan on giving that up.

>Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Is this your standard for whether or not something is colonialism? Do you apply it consistently throughout, even when its inconvenient for you?

My definition of colonialism generally involves people being subjugated and being treated as less and involuntarily part of an empire. People in Gibraltar are British citizens with full rights by definition.

Land borders that one doesn't like doesn't equate to colonialism. It's just a land border that you don't like. The people of Gibraltar voted almost 100% to be British on more than one occasion. Trying to make them not British is the definition of colonialism

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#43

Post by alex000kim »

precommunicator wrote: post #2

my experience with border control in Gibraltar (foreign car, 2023): entering: Spanish side: passport scan, UK side: 5 second look exiting: waving through

same experience last year, existing without having to stop was especially surprising

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#44

Post by amunozo »

iso1631 wrote: post #33
amunozo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I am Spanish, so I might be biased) I think the twp main problems are not who Gibraltar belongs to, but 1. Gibraltar is that it is kind of a tax haven next to one of th areas of Spain with more poverty and unemployment, which is also one of the main drug entrances of the country. This combibation is explosive and really problematic for the people in the Campo de Gibraltar, especially the youth. 2. The people of Gibr…

I assume you're also in favour of Ceuta and Melilla being given to Morocco over the wishes of the people whos ancestors have lived there for centuries?

Ceuta and Melilla are part of Spain since the fifteenth century, same as Granada and way older than the Moroccan state.

I am telling that Gibraltar people should decide which country they want to belong to, same thing with Ceuta and Melilla.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#45

Post by rjsw »

darkwater wrote: post #39
phoronixrly wrote: post #8

> After years of negotiation involving Spain, the EU and the UK, the solution has been to align Gibraltar with the European customs union and the Schengen European free travel zone. > Travellers arriving from countries outside Schengen, such as the UK, will have to show their passports to Gibraltarian and Spanish officials at the territory's airport and port. So an L for the UK as Gibraltar has again freedom of movem…

Looks like we have a lot of British "nationalists" leavers downvoting everything here. I mean, you comment is basically a fact: Brexit implied losing Schengen, it was part of it from day 0. Putting back Gibraltar in Schengen is a defeat for Brexit supporters. EDIT: not Schengen, sorry, although I'm pretty sure I just used my national (European) ID to go to London many many years ago and not my passport.

The UK was not in Schengen when it was a member of the EU.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#46

Post by froidpink »

Cyph0n wrote: post #17
Laurel1234 wrote: post #4

It'd be even easier if Gibraltar is returned to Spain to whom it belongs.

It would also be great if Ceuta and Melilla returned back to Morocco, and if Western Sahara in turn gained its independence from Morocco. As an aside, I have always found it ironic how Spain continuously whines about Gibraltar while doing the exact same thing to Morocco. At the very least, Spain was smart/lucky enough to lobby the UN early on to not include Ceuta and Melilla in the decolonization list.

Ceuta was never Moroccan. In fact, Morocco didn't even exist when Ceuta became part of Portugal first (1415) and then Spain (either 1580 or 1640). Ceuta was a part of the Spanish Visigoth kingdom in the 7th Century before the Islamic Conquest (which for some reason we don't call colonisation). Ceuta has always had a strong connection with the rulers of Iberia.

Gibraltar, on the other hand, was just lost in the War of Spanish succession to the British Empire, and has had a British connection to them since then, but never before

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#47

Post by rmunn »

kdheiwns wrote: post #38
unkeen wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not talking about any of the points you mention, I was refering to the geographical facts alone. Wouldn't you agree that in general it is kind of silly to claim ownership of a piece of land that is far, far away from your own country?

I was born in a country that has islands and I live in a different country that consists exclusively of islands. The islands spread out thousands of miles in various directions. Land being far apart is just a reality of how countries work. The distance from London to Gibraltar is closer than the distance from London to Bermuda, but nobody finds that weird. France has French Polynesia on the opposite side of the world…

I would add natural navigation barriers such as rivers and lakes (and some, but not all, mountain ranges) to the list of "clean" borders. They're not straight lines, but they're a natural place to site a border.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#48

Post by inglor_cz »

Pragmata wrote: post #32
kdheiwns wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Forcing those people out or seizing the land from them would be the definition of colonialism, yes. And exclaves exist all around the world. Geography has never really meant anything in national terms. Spain has a piece of land on Africa and I don't think they plan on giving that up.

>Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Is this your standard for whether or not something is colonialism? Do you apply it consistently throughout, even when its inconvenient for you?

"Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milk.

After 10 generations, the people are every bit as local as the previous population was. 300 years is such an abyss of time that most of us would fail to name a single of our ancestors by name.

Kladsko was a Czech city from approx. 1000 to 1742. The old town still looks a bit like very small Prague [0]. Was lost in a war (to the Prussians no less), it is gone, not our anymore. Tough luck. Others live there now, it is theirs.

[0] https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kladsko_(město)#/media/Soubor:...

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#49

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

was_a_dev wrote: post #34
phoronixrly wrote: post #8

> After years of negotiation involving Spain, the EU and the UK, the solution has been to align Gibraltar with the European customs union and the Schengen European free travel zone. > Travellers arriving from countries outside Schengen, such as the UK, will have to show their passports to Gibraltarian and Spanish officials at the territory's airport and port. So an L for the UK as Gibraltar has again freedom of movem…

> freedom of movement to the EU (that the British hated so much) A generalisation that only applied to, at most, 52% of the voting British public

> at most, 52% of the voting British public

Indeed. And, At a point in time ten years ago. In voters who skewed older.

See the Voter Flow diagram: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1pj8kzd/voters_and_...

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#50

Post by yoavm »

iso1631 wrote: post #33
amunozo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I am Spanish, so I might be biased) I think the twp main problems are not who Gibraltar belongs to, but 1. Gibraltar is that it is kind of a tax haven next to one of th areas of Spain with more poverty and unemployment, which is also one of the main drug entrances of the country. This combibation is explosive and really problematic for the people in the Campo de Gibraltar, especially the youth. 2. The people of Gibr…

I assume you're also in favour of Ceuta and Melilla being given to Morocco over the wishes of the people whos ancestors have lived there for centuries?

From my quick search, it doesn't at all seem like the majority of the people living in Ceuta and Melilla wish to be part of Morocco.
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