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New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

bbc.com

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Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#21

Post by iainmerrick »

phoronixrly wrote: post #8

> After years of negotiation involving Spain, the EU and the UK, the solution has been to align Gibraltar with the European customs union and the Schengen European free travel zone. > Travellers arriving from countries outside Schengen, such as the UK, will have to show their passports to Gibraltarian and Spanish officials at the territory's airport and port. So an L for the UK as Gibraltar has again freedom of movem…

It's really ridiculous how little discussion there was about places like Gibraltar and Northern Ireland before the Brexit vote.

Looks like NI voted ~55% remain and Gibraltar ~95% remain, but too bad, England voted ~53% leave, so screw all you little overseas territories with actual land borders who are most directly impacted.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#22

Post by unkeen »

manarth wrote: post #15
unkeen wrote: post #3

From a purely geographical point of view, it is so absurd that there is even a debate about to which land mass Gibraltar "belongs" to. As a colonialist, I would find it very difficult to justify my own behaviour nowadays.

Whilst I don't disagree, Spain has similar questions to answer about Ceuta and Melilla.

I didn't debate that.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#23

Post by thih9 »

unkeen wrote: post #3

From a purely geographical point of view, it is so absurd that there is even a debate about to which land mass Gibraltar "belongs" to. As a colonialist, I would find it very difficult to justify my own behaviour nowadays.

There are many more places like this, e.g. Point Roberts[1].

> Questions about ceding the territory to the United Kingdom and later to Canada have been raised since its creation; however, its status has remained unchanged.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#24

Post by ChocolateGod »

pelagicAustral wrote: post #10
Laurel1234 wrote: post #4

It'd be even easier if Gibraltar is returned to Spain to whom it belongs.

Bad precedent for the Falkland Islands... Chagos and then Gibraltar, would force the Falklands issue to be addressed more seriously, and that would be extremely unfair, since the argentine moot argument it's a mere chauvinist temper tantrum, fueled by generation after generation of propaganda conditioning by failed governments.

To be fair, the situation of the Falklands is very different to Gibraltar.

The Falklands were never Argentinian. The "native" inhabitants are the ones currently living there.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#25

Post by pjc50 »

phoronixrly wrote: post #8

> After years of negotiation involving Spain, the EU and the UK, the solution has been to align Gibraltar with the European customs union and the Schengen European free travel zone. > Travellers arriving from countries outside Schengen, such as the UK, will have to show their passports to Gibraltarian and Spanish officials at the territory's airport and port. So an L for the UK as Gibraltar has again freedom of movem…

The UK will eventually demand the return of freedom of movement of people and goods, for exactly the same reasons as it entered the EU in the first place. Might take another 20 years though.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#26

Post by iso1631 »

unkeen wrote: post #3

From a purely geographical point of view, it is so absurd that there is even a debate about to which land mass Gibraltar "belongs" to. As a colonialist, I would find it very difficult to justify my own behaviour nowadays.

It belongs to the people who live there. While you may think places like Point Roberts should be forcibly moved to Canada, or Ceuta should be forcibly moved to Morocco, I'm of the opinion of self determination, as is the global view based on the United Nations, who recognizes self-determination as the right of all peoples to freely determine their political status and pursue their economic, social, and cultural development

That's the same, whether it's Gibraltar, Scotland, Cornwall, the Canary Islands, Ceuta, Taiwan, Falklands, Cyprus, Texas, Point Roberts, Crimea, Canada, Greenland, etc etc.

We can argue about the thresholds needed, the length of time of residence ("squatters rights" etc), the minimum size of a given area, but the principal remains.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#27

Post by hermitcrab »

manarth wrote: post #15
unkeen wrote: post #3

From a purely geographical point of view, it is so absurd that there is even a debate about to which land mass Gibraltar "belongs" to. As a colonialist, I would find it very difficult to justify my own behaviour nowadays.

Whilst I don't disagree, Spain has similar questions to answer about Ceuta and Melilla.

"Ah, but that's different!" I was told when I asked some Spanish people about the apparent hypocrisy of Spanish enclaves.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#28

Post by unkeen »

kdheiwns wrote: post #12
unkeen wrote: post #3

From a purely geographical point of view, it is so absurd that there is even a debate about to which land mass Gibraltar "belongs" to. As a colonialist, I would find it very difficult to justify my own behaviour nowadays.

Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Forcing those people out or seizing the land from them would be the definition of colonialism, yes. And exclaves exist all around the world. Geography has never really meant anything in national terms. Spain has a piece of land on Africa and I don't think they plan on giving that up.

I was not talking about any of the points you mention, I was refering to the geographical facts alone. Wouldn't you agree that in general it is kind of silly to claim ownership of a piece of land that is far, far away from your own country?

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#29

Post by Tuna-Fish »

ggm wrote: post #13
pelagicAustral wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad precedent for the Falkland Islands... Chagos and then Gibraltar, would force the Falklands issue to be addressed more seriously, and that would be extremely unfair, since the argentine moot argument it's a mere chauvinist temper tantrum, fueled by generation after generation of propaganda conditioning by failed governments.

A reminder the british government explored handing the Falklands over to Argentina before the war. Fisheries and oil, have changed the view but in times last it was not inconceivable to transfer authority.

> Fisheries and oil, have changed the view

No. The reason was not economic, the reason was that the government polled the people living there and found that support for remaining British is ~100%.

Oil was found later, the fisheries were never worth maintaining the island for.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#30

Post by darkwater »

manarth wrote: post #15
unkeen wrote: post #3

From a purely geographical point of view, it is so absurd that there is even a debate about to which land mass Gibraltar "belongs" to. As a colonialist, I would find it very difficult to justify my own behaviour nowadays.

Whilst I don't disagree, Spain has similar questions to answer about Ceuta and Melilla.

And, to a lesser extent, Canary Islands.
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