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European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

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Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#161

Post by reloadtak »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #35
blop wrote: post #25

This is the elephant in the room regarding the big "digital sovereignty" talks in the EU. For the moment in the EU institutions the focus is mostly at the post-acceptance stage that everything must eventually migrate off US clouds. There is still some denial and hope that things will go back to "before" because it's going to be extremely costly to migrate, but at least high level EU civil servants start to see the st…

Because this is all a political move. This so-called "EU sovereignty" drive is in fact aimed at further reducing sovereignty of the member states via further transfer of power and control to the EU. These digital ID wallets do exactly that. Member states lose control of the ID infrastructure, which will now be controlled by the EU. There isn't much sovereignty left at national level...

Each member state has to implement the system themselves. Where is the loss of control?

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#162

Post by elevation »

SoftTalker wrote: post #138
skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

We have had the need to prove age for hundreds of years. To buy alcohol. To drive a car. To vote. We depend on government-issued documents to do this. Not sure why anyone would really expect this to change just because it's online now.

Older systems were imperfect and were understood to be. I've meet veterans who joined the Navy at 14 or 16. I've met many College students who can pass as old enough to buy alcohol, especially with a fake id. Dead people are sometimes registered to vote. We know this and have systems to try to catch these exceptions.

But cellphone access is different; it's assumed to be perfect, but it's increasingly being moderated by machine learning heuristics that serve as judge, jury, and executioner, severing your services if a couple of your actions trigger a fuzzy approximation to some of the training data.

AI moderation helps suppress spammers, but it's also punishing false positives, and there is just no recourse. Any ID system that piggybacks on "Apple | Google" is effectively shunning some non trivial portion of society. Governments of the people need to provision their own tech systems that are accessible to all citizens, even those who have run afoul of an AI moderation system.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#163

Post by inigyou »

spwa4 wrote: post #32
cbg0 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't AOSP a thing?

You mean giving China control over it? (because you still need the hardware made, and it's not like the EU commission is even prepared to fix BSPs for that hardware) The EU has endlessly sold critical infrastructure to US, India and China while actively sabotaging efforts to rebuild it and now want it back - for free. This is criticized as having a low chance of success, as well as being a pretty unreasonable demand.

TIL Google is China

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#164

Post by intended »

saltwatercowboy wrote: post #145
SoftTalker wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have had the need to prove age for hundreds of years. To buy alcohol. To drive a car. To vote. We depend on government-issued documents to do this. Not sure why anyone would really expect this to change just because it's online now.

Very obviously because privacy advocates are concerned by the effects of mass deanonymization. I find it doubtful that you don't grasp that.

Privacy is losing ground, despite people understanding the stakes.

Privacy advocacy is losing the battle, because it is being framed as a choice between privacy and the status quo, and people vehemently dislike the status quo.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#166

Post by inigyou »

jck86 wrote: post #66
gobip wrote: post #13

Don't fall for the trap. The question isn't how we should technically force age verification on anybody. The question is why they're pushing it onto everyone. I did not consent to this, neither did you.

But it is needed to protect the children. The politicians say so, so it has to be true. Being against this is very dangerous to our children and democracy. There is no alternative. Seriously, there is something tremendously wrong with governance when politicians keep changing the whole world around us, without us having any say in it at all. The threat this measure poses to the internet and society is significant, ye…

Maybe we should protect the children and then they couldn't use the excuse

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#167

Post by afandian »

gobip wrote: post #13

Don't fall for the trap. The question isn't how we should technically force age verification on anybody. The question is why they're pushing it onto everyone. I did not consent to this, neither did you.

There’s a huge amount of stuff that the EU does that no one consented to, or had a realistic democratic avenue to influence.

I’m in the UK and very anti Brexit. But were we still in, I would have no idea how to influence what happens behind those closed doors at the European Commision.

Granted the current UK Labour/ Conservative pact on these issues show they’re completely out of control. But I still theoretically know how I could influence policy.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#168

Post by afandian »

toasty228 wrote: post #132
gobip wrote: post #13

Don't fall for the trap. The question isn't how we should technically force age verification on anybody. The question is why they're pushing it onto everyone. I did not consent to this, neither did you.

> The question is why they're pushing it onto everyone. I did not consent to this, neither did you. The representatives elected by Europeans did though: 483 votes in favor, 92 against

I doubt those representatives gathered a sufficient mandate from their public given the huge consequence.

I’m no conspiracy theorist, but it does seem that there’s an international influence outweighing democracy.

Cui bono?

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#169

Post by toasty228 »

fsflover wrote: post #157
toasty228 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You already can't do any of these things without some kind of governmental issued ID which already has your birthdate on it. idk why people are so scared of it, do you really believe they don't know what you do on your personal internet connection linked to your name and payment data ? Like yeah sure if you pay everything in cash and never use internet OK that's a big problem, but for the average HN shitposter who's…

> You already can't do any of these things without some kind of governmental issued ID which already has your birthdate on it. Do you have to present this ID for every purchase you make or every website you visit? Will it be stored and processed by every shop you enter? If not, how is this relevant here? Currently, the personal data exists but is not accessed by anyone unless it is really required. And even then, the…

> Do you have to present this ID for every purchase you make or every website you visit?

Basically yes, your mobile connection is attached to a name, your landline is attached to a name, your adresse too, the card you use to pay online too.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#170

Post by iLoveOncall »

roundabout-host wrote: post #105
hahahaa wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Run linux?

I don't understand. Even if you run GNU/Linux, when you access a restricted website on it, you will have to scan a QR code with the Android or iOS app. https://cinema.ageverification.dev > is a demo which shows that.

> https://cinema.ageverification.dev is a demo which shows that.

Unrelated to the substance of the comment but this is a depressing example. Imagine having to verify your age and your identity to buy a movie ticket. This is pure insanity.

Dark times are ahead. Anyone that doesn't see we'll all be living in dictatorships within the next 10 years is putting their head in the sand.

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