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European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

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Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#141

Post by toasty228 »

snottynose wrote: post #68
lstodd wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is -- why they even need to verify ages of users. This is not decided, and my take is that they do not.

It's funny, concomittant all this chest beating about representing open societies, democracies, unlike those creepy evil authoritarian states which we don't like, that the EC seems hell bent on proving we can have a police state _just_ as intrusive if not more than say: Russia. This is not how we were supposed to prove that we are better.

> as intrusive if not more than say: Russia.

Ping me when people are physically tortured by police for facebook posts, because that's what happens there.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#142

Post by inigyou »

dzjkb wrote: post #131
knorker wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even saying your conclusion is wrong. But choosing Netherlands about how information control is safe in the hands of the government is a bit of an own goal. Like if I was the boss of a train company I would probably not put up a photo of Mussolini as a motivational poster. Well… maybe I would, but only ironically. > How is, of all things, an age verification app going to make that worse? What are you arguing…

>how do you verify age without verifying identity zero-knowledge proofs

Then you only know that someone is over 18. You don't know who is over 18. In particular, you don't know it's the person who's accessing your website.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#143

Post by jck86 »

anal_reactor wrote: post #92
jck86 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is needed to protect the children. The politicians say so, so it has to be true. Being against this is very dangerous to our children and democracy. There is no alternative. Seriously, there is something tremendously wrong with governance when politicians keep changing the whole world around us, without us having any say in it at all. The threat this measure poses to the internet and society is significant, ye…

> Seriously, there is something tremendously wrong with governance when politicians keep changing the whole world around us, without us having any say in it at all. That's where you're wrong. Most people actually do agree with age verification. Just because a decision is stupid it doesn't mean it's undemocratic. Trump was elected democratically, twice. Brexit passed through a referendum.

Most people are in favor of solving world hunger, poverty, the wars and climate change. Until you hand them the bill. Likewise most people will not agree with age verification when actually implemented.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#144

Post by kspacewalk2 »

snottynose wrote: post #50
tikkabhuna wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would an age verification app need to know your ethnicity/religion? Governments likely already know your name, age, place of birth, so having an app with a standard API for verifying users isn't giving the government additional data.

It is one extra attack vector. There is a data leak reported every week, and it is now apparent we cannot trust any organization to handle any datum securely, at all. It has gotten to the point where I now consider every piece of information compromised and sold on the dark web as soon as I am forced to transfer it to a third party. Because those are the odds.

Doing absolutely everything useful with that data is "one extra attack vector". That is not any kind of a persuasive argument in itself.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#145

Post by saltwatercowboy »

SoftTalker wrote: post #138
skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

We have had the need to prove age for hundreds of years. To buy alcohol. To drive a car. To vote. We depend on government-issued documents to do this. Not sure why anyone would really expect this to change just because it's online now.

Very obviously because privacy advocates are concerned by the effects of mass deanonymization. I find it doubtful that you don't grasp that.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#146

Post by jandrese »

choo-t wrote: post #95
pibaker wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Roblox experience also includes a huge existing player base who may come and play your game without having to install anything new on their machines. I'd say this social factor actually matters a lot for Roblox where many if not most games are multiplayer. The only thing close is minecraft, which from what I heard already has similar restrictions on in game chat, plus other shady maneuvers from Microsoft.

Of course Roblox have more player, but does your child really need millions of players? It's the same network effect with other megacorp, we could argue the same about X/Instagram/Mastodon, the question could be changed to: Do you want your children to be groomed to use closed source ecosystem from shady companies or do you prefer they gain experience in using relatively open ecosystem ? Luanti let you make multiplay…

It's the difference between getting a trickle of random players on the map vs. never ever seeing another player.

For Minecraft random people are more of a nuisance than an asset, but for a Roblox obby there is an expectation that other people will check it out.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#147

Post by capitainenemo »

wonderwonder wrote: post #130
em500 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government issued versus corporate issued age verification is a false dichotomy. There are other options, such as refusing games that require them. (Yes, we do have a teen, and yes we did exactly that with Roblox.)

Thats obviously fine to do but it is very much going to have consequences for some kids. My kids spend hours a week playing roblox with their IRL friends. 10 - 15 kids on a group call on speaker phone all logged into the same code laughing and yelling for a couple hours a night. If I was to suddenly tell them that they can't play those games with their friends it would have very real effects on their social life. My…

Self-hosting a minecraft server is still an option. And tons of customisability there and you aren't turning everything over to a centralised server.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#148

Post by knorker »

dzjkb wrote: post #131
knorker wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even saying your conclusion is wrong. But choosing Netherlands about how information control is safe in the hands of the government is a bit of an own goal. Like if I was the boss of a train company I would probably not put up a photo of Mussolini as a motivational poster. Well… maybe I would, but only ironically. > How is, of all things, an age verification app going to make that worse? What are you arguing…

>how do you verify age without verifying identity zero-knowledge proofs

Your comment sounds like a politician who has just heard a magic technical incantation that solves everything.

I'm sorry, you can't just drop "quantum computer", or "zero knowledge proof", or "flux capacitor", and think that you have solved the problem.

Just dropping "zero-knowledge proof" as if it's a mic drop moment is like when Turnbull said "the laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia".

The devil in all this is in the details. Just saying "zero-knowledge proof" is just barely more productive than saying "won't someone please think of the children?".

If you don't have a complete solution, then you're "not even wrong".

In addition to that, you have misunderstood how zero-knowledge even addresses the main problems. Not the technical problems, and DEFINITELY not the meatspace problems.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#149

Post by choo-t »

skrebbel wrote: post #115
choo-t wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can (and should) be mad at the government and at Roblox at the same time. Also, don't use Roblox, you can freely share games made with PICO-8, Löve, Godot, Rpgmaker, Game maker and the like, no need to go to the hell scape that is Roblox and its dark patern and locked down ecosystem.

My kid does Godot and TIC-80 (a bit like PICO-8 but more forgiving) as well. Those are great but they don’t beat Roblox on distribution nor multiplayer by a long shot. I agree that Roblox is a hellscape when you want to make serious games, eg make money from it or sth, but if you just want to mess around making a “supermarket horror tower defense” game full of in-jokes and then have all five of your friends join it,…

Yeah multiplayer is kinda problematic because of port forwarding and dynamic IP.

S&B or other engine-as-game solve that by using the platform account system and master server for discovery and NAT punch through.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#150

Post by a2128 »

zh3 wrote: post #126
skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

As a purely tactical measure, we use the same older person (me) for age verification for all family members - zero failures so far and it poisons the well.

In the case of Roblox they have a horrible system where they estimate your age and only allow you to interact with people of a similar age, meaning if you verified your kid with your face then they'd only be able to interact with adults and not other kids. At least that's the theory. It doesn't take a lot of effort to figure out how a predator could misuse this system to their advantage (which is why I call it horrible)

Reference: https://en.help.roblox.com/hc/en-us/articles/39143693116052-...

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