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European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

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Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#111

Post by roundabout-host »

anal_reactor wrote: post #110
roundabout-host wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it depends on how you frame it. > Social media is destroying children's brains! Do you want access to be delayed until a certain age? > Do you want children under a certain age to be banned from social media, which means that you will now have to give your ID, only with Android or iOS?

> only with Android or iOS 99% of people understand this as "you need a smartphone" which is not a problem in 2026, even for the elderly.

"only if you choose to share your personal data with either Google or Apple"?

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#112

Post by roundabout-host »

yorwba wrote: post #109
roundabout-host wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "app" could be a good solution, if it didn't require attested Android or iOS. It could, for example, have me plug my ID chip into my GNU/Linux system and expose it with a standard protocol. That would be no problem. The problem is that they do not want such a way. In any case, I think that age gating would not be needed if the platforms were regulated to remove addictive recommendation algorithms.

Using an ID card reader is already possible. See here for a list of Linux repos supporting German IDs: https://www.ausweisapp.bund.de/en/open-source Finding a working hardware/software combination for your ID card is up to you. The app is an alternative for people who don't want to buy or carry around a card reader, but who already have a smartphone.

It is possible for e-signatures and similar variants. However, there is no sign that the "age verification" will support this variant. If you go to the demo https://cinema.ageverification.dev>, no option is given other than the Android/iOS app.

So it seems that the app is only an alternative in the case of government portals, but it is not an alternative for "age verification".

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#113

Post by lstodd »

roundabout-host wrote: post #106
lstodd wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"government" age verification app will be made and maintan ed by some corp anyways. so it will gather extra data, sell it sideways and leak like hell. (as they already do with all the data they already have)

Since it requires Android or iOS, Google/Apple can gather the same data too.

They did this from the beginning, still one can not cease trying to limit the exposure.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#114

Post by notabotiswear »

snottynose wrote: post #59
notabotiswear wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writings on the wall can’t be clearer on AOSP’s future…

It is true that Google (de facto) controls the platform and made themselves (de facto) essential to utilizing the platform by integrating their proprietary services so deeply into the OS that you need to be a behemoth of Samsungs caliber to even attempt to meaningfully re-purpose the AOSP, and this was a brilliant strategy because it has allowed Google to solidify their spot in the duopoly / oligarchy while seeming "…

Have to throw in this 13 year old Ars Technica article as a follow up:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on...

Still amazes me how everyone isn't cynical-by-default about anything Google (or big tech in general) open-sources yet...

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#115

Post by skrebbel »

choo-t wrote: post #38
skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

You can (and should) be mad at the government and at Roblox at the same time. Also, don't use Roblox, you can freely share games made with PICO-8, Löve, Godot, Rpgmaker, Game maker and the like, no need to go to the hell scape that is Roblox and its dark patern and locked down ecosystem.

My kid does Godot and TIC-80 (a bit like PICO-8 but more forgiving) as well. Those are great but they don’t beat Roblox on distribution nor multiplayer by a long shot.

I agree that Roblox is a hellscape when you want to make serious games, eg make money from it or sth, but if you just want to mess around making a “supermarket horror tower defense” game full of in-jokes and then have all five of your friends join it, and It Just Works, sorry but nothing comes close to Roblox.

Until they required age verification for that ofc.

Also, just don't ever buy any Robux and kids will auto steer away from the shitty games that need it. That filters out 95% of the badness of Roblox right out the gate.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#116

Post by skrebbel »

knorker wrote: post #34
skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

Funny you use Netherlands as a good example, considering that famously, their existing unusually thorough registry was super helpful for the Nazis rounding up jews later. I don't think it's Godwin's Law when you are so spot on, exactly describing the worst case.

I don’t follow. The Dutch tax office has substantially more complete records right now. Even if they don’t track race or religion as explicitly as they did in the 40s, your hypothetical invading Nazis can run some local AI over people’s last names and get close enough.

How is, of all things, an age verification app going to make that worse?

I mean I understand your argument in principle but it seems you’re arguing against ~every present-day functional government and not against an age verification app.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#117

Post by skrebbel »

em500 wrote: post #45
skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

Government issued versus corporate issued age verification is a false dichotomy. There are other options, such as refusing games that require them. (Yes, we do have a teen, and yes we did exactly that with Roblox.)

Fwiw we did that with Roblox too, but I hate it because Roblox Studio was a pretty damn fun collaborative gamedev experience.

I mean his classmates argue with their parents about whether they can install TikTok (and most parents lose). Meanwhile I’m denying my son the right to make a game together with a friend. It’s so creative and so educative and I’m saying no to it. It sucks and I hate Roblox for making something so cool and then taking it away for such stupid reasons.

I’d happily pay a license fee or sth. But I’m not gonna let them scan my son’s face.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#119

Post by anal_reactor »

roundabout-host wrote: post #111
anal_reactor wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> only with Android or iOS 99% of people understand this as "you need a smartphone" which is not a problem in 2026, even for the elderly.

"only if you choose to share your personal data with either Google or Apple"?

How is that different from having a banking app installed? Or a government ID app?

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#120

Post by knorker »

skrebbel wrote: post #116
knorker wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny you use Netherlands as a good example, considering that famously, their existing unusually thorough registry was super helpful for the Nazis rounding up jews later. I don't think it's Godwin's Law when you are so spot on, exactly describing the worst case.

I don’t follow. The Dutch tax office has substantially more complete records right now. Even if they don’t track race or religion as explicitly as they did in the 40s, your hypothetical invading Nazis can run some local AI over people’s last names and get close enough. How is, of all things, an age verification app going to make that worse? I mean I understand your argument in principle but it seems you’re arguing ag…

I'm not even saying your conclusion is wrong. But choosing Netherlands about how information control is safe in the hands of the government is a bit of an own goal.

Like if I was the boss of a train company I would probably not put up a photo of Mussolini as a motivational poster. Well… maybe I would, but only ironically.

> How is, of all things, an age verification app going to make that worse?

What are you arguing for, here? If everything were perfectly anonymous, maybe. But NOT ONCE in history has governments decided to not abuse power. It'd be so easy to just put a tracker in there or something.

All these "think of the children" arguments are ALWAYS red herrings. Literally any action, any freedom denied, can be justified in the fight against CSAM. And so they get rushed through and abused.

The EU DNS filter (CSAADF) was literally IMMEDIATELY abused to block other things too.

"It's just age verification". Is it, though? How do you verify age without verifying identity? How do you verify its use, without tracking. Provably without tracking. Provably without what's called "turnkey tyranny"?

I think if your argument, which is an extremely common argument, is "I just want to block children's access to bad stuff on the Internet", then you cannot possibly have been paying attention to this debate that's been going on since at least the mid 1990s. Were you even born when this was being discussed? If that's your argument then you have about 30 years of catching up to do before you should speak.

[1] yes, I know Mussolini did not in fact make the trains run on time.

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