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Lost city discovered beneath Egypt's desert with ancient church

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Re: Lost city discovered beneath Egypt's desert with ancient church

#91

Post by hechang1997 »

declan_roberts wrote: post #56

> During this period, from the late fourth to the mid-seventh century AD, Christianity became the dominant religion, towns expanded across the country and Egypt served as one of the empire's richest provinces. It's easy to forget how different the Middle East looked before the conquest of Islam starting in 600 AD.

> It's easy to forget how different the Middle East looked before the conquest of Islam starting in 600 AD.

It’s easy to forget because it’s a fabricated perspective. Islamic/Arabian conquest of MENA isn’t really that different from what Romans or Persians did. That region is literally the source of human civilization (in the Old World at least) and had seen empires come and go ever since the Bronze Age, and along with them all sorts of cultures and religions. What fundamentally changed the dynamics of the region is not the islamic conquest but the shift of the center of the global trade away from Middle East and the Mediterranean to the Western Europe.

Re: Lost city discovered beneath Egypt's desert with ancient church

#92

Post by senderista »

dismalaf wrote: post #62
declan_roberts wrote: post #56

> During this period, from the late fourth to the mid-seventh century AD, Christianity became the dominant religion, towns expanded across the country and Egypt served as one of the empire's richest provinces. It's easy to forget how different the Middle East looked before the conquest of Islam starting in 600 AD.

Not just Islamic conquest but Arab conquest. Up to this point Arabs lived mainly in, well, Arabia. The indigenous peoples of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, etc..., were all non-Arab. Nowadays those indigenous groups are known as Copts, Syriacs, Chaldeans, etc...

We call Arabic speakers “Arabs” but there wasn’t that much genetic replacement.

Re: Lost city discovered beneath Egypt's desert with ancient church

#93

Post by cwnyth »

BalinKing wrote: post #68
cwnyth wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They actually called themselves Ῥωμαῖοι, not Romani, and not every description needs to be emic. There's nothing wrong with the label "Byzantine" except to Byzaboos.

But Wikipedia[0] says Ῥωμαῖοι transliterates to Romaioi, i.e. "Romans". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature

Because I was too brief while at work before, let me be fuller now: if you were to go back a thousand years and ask about the national characteristic of the emperor of Constantinople, they'd look at you crazy because you spoke English. But your question is laden with several assumptions that are completely foreign to their minds. First, Byzantine is an adjective from Byzantium, the original name of Constantinople. First and foremost, when its used in Classical and Late Antique historiography, it's describing an empire, culture, polity, etc. that centers on Constantinople, rather than other cities of the empire. It is not an ethnic marker. The people at the time would have called themselves Greek, Romans, or Syrians. Second, whether "Romaioi" or "Hellenes" is preferred waxes and wanes depending on what's en vogue at the time. Contrary to the meme, the citizens of Athens did not uniformly call themselves "Romans" (Romaioi) from the 320s onward. Some were, some weren't. What language did they speak? What ethnos, genos were they of? What does Romaioi even really mean? That will yield better answers, but again, it differs based on fashion. Lastly, the very idea of a defined "empire" would be very confusing for the ancients. What is that word? It looks like imperium, but that means domain of rule. It's not limited to those at the helm, who might call themselves imperatores, but also Augusti. It's not like a kingdom encompassing other kingdoms. It's just a modern term given to an ancient reality, with no difference at all to names like Byzantine or even Roman.

See e.g. Lintott on the problems of this terminology:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/greece-and-rome/arti...

This whole "debate" is a charade provided by people who once complained they had to take a humanities class and thereafter were clueless about what real modern historians and philologists were discussing about this period.

Re: Lost city discovered beneath Egypt's desert with ancient church

#95

Post by prmoustache »

tyjen wrote: post #63
kenjackson wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Italy was it for me. The train station in Rome was crazy. And just Venice in general. I was probably just in the touristy areas, but it was definitely the most hardcore non-stop street scamming I'd been around.

Rented a car out of Munich and they forbade me from driving it to Italy. Said thieves are too common to risk driving, even in northern Italy. Train was simple enough though.

Rental cars are magnets. Never understood why rental companies always put the damn sticker in the car.

Never had a problem in Italy with a +20y old junker car even with swiss plates.

Re: Lost city discovered beneath Egypt's desert with ancient church

#96

Post by openuntil3am »

gaiagraphia wrote: post #89
declan_roberts wrote: post #56

> During this period, from the late fourth to the mid-seventh century AD, Christianity became the dominant religion, towns expanded across the country and Egypt served as one of the empire's richest provinces. It's easy to forget how different the Middle East looked before the conquest of Islam starting in 600 AD.

Islam has sure done a number on cultural diversity in the world. It's such a shame that the various cultural holdouts in the Middle East never get much attention when they're systematically wiped off the map. The Mandaeans in the marshes near Basra will probably be next to disappear into the sands of time. Not even a whisper in the media. Oil sure has a way of drowning out 'human rights' in conversation.

Christianity is no different.

Re: Lost city discovered beneath Egypt's desert with ancient church

#97

Post by derdi »

nonethewiser wrote: post #74
derdi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not singling you out, all the articles do it, but: Strange to call this Byzantine. The coins found are from the reign of Constantius II, who at times ruled the whole empire alone (as did his successor Julian). The idea that the East, even when administered separately, was some foreign/"Byzantine"/not- really -Roman "other" was invented much later.

But he never said Byzantium wasnt Roman? I get that there is controversy about if Byzantium was Roman. But the person you’re replying to doesn’t seem to be making any claims about that.

Again, I'm not criticizing that person specifically. They repeated a word that appears in all the articles.

There are two points I was trying to make:

1. At the relevant time, there were no separate Eastern and Western empires, so this city was just Roman, without qualification.

2. Even later, it could just be called Eastern Roman. Calling it Byzantine instead may be a conscious choice to make the Roman-ness disappear. More likely it's just deeply implanted, based on an education that was based on making the Roman-ness disappear. Again, I'm speaking about the general use of the term in all the articles, not by the OP.

Anyway. Even the person in this thread arguing most vehemently for the use of the term Byzantine says it applies to the "latter eastern Roman empire". So it shouldn't be used for this city, since it's neither form the Eastern empire (which, again, did not exist yet) and especially not from its latter period.

Re: Lost city discovered beneath Egypt's desert with ancient church

#98

Post by soperj »

declan_roberts wrote: post #56

> During this period, from the late fourth to the mid-seventh century AD, Christianity became the dominant religion, towns expanded across the country and Egypt served as one of the empire's richest provinces. It's easy to forget how different the Middle East looked before the conquest of Islam starting in 600 AD.

You had one group of people who believed in God that were completely wiped out by another who also believed in the same God.

Re: Lost city discovered beneath Egypt's desert with ancient church

#99

Post by jsemrau »

openuntil3am wrote: post #96
gaiagraphia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam has sure done a number on cultural diversity in the world. It's such a shame that the various cultural holdouts in the Middle East never get much attention when they're systematically wiped off the map. The Mandaeans in the marshes near Basra will probably be next to disappear into the sands of time. Not even a whisper in the media. Oil sure has a way of drowning out 'human rights' in conversation.

Christianity is no different.

Please educate yourself more on this. Step out of your bubble. Christian nations have created the cultural and technical achievements over the last thousands of years. There is nothing even remotely comparable.

Re: Lost city discovered beneath Egypt's desert with ancient church

#100

Post by defrost »

jsemrau wrote: post #99
openuntil3am wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christianity is no different.

Please educate yourself more on this. Step out of your bubble. Christian nations have created the cultural and technical achievements over the last thousands of years. There is nothing even remotely comparable.

The subject wasn't the creation of technology, it was the propensity of theocracies to beat the native out of natives.

eg: https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2021/sep/06...

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