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Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

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Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#91

Post by ben_w »

hparadiz wrote: post #68
f6v wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We would build our own alternatives. Right, and we haven’t because we just don’t wanna? The gap between US/China and the EU in AI is becoming wider by the day. Russia has like 3-4 large tech companies (Sber, Yandex, VK, and maybe Ozon). And they completely rely on foreign hardware. I don’t even want to imagine how could Russia start building frontier AI in these circumstances.

It's actually pretty sad for the EU that the biggest tech company names on the continent are all Russian.

Not that "largest by market cap" says much, given that it corresponds to "oh look a monopoly" as much as it does "innovation and real growth" (and also "bubble"), but you're wrong.

Market caps of Russian examples from above:

Sber: $84 bn - https://companiesmarketcap.com/sberbank/marketcap/

Yandex: RUB 1327B (~= $17 bn) - https://tradingeconomics.com/yndx:rm:market-capitalization

VK: RUB 176.7B (~= $2.3 bn) - https://smart-lab.ru/q/VKCO/MSFO/market_cap/en/

Ozon: $8.9 bn - https://companiesmarketcap.com/ozon/marketcap/

Market caps of bigger EU tech firms:

  ASML: $533.84 B
  Siemens: $223.14 B
  SAP: $202.96 B
  Seagate Technology: $164.43 B
- https://civixplorer.com/post/most-valuable-eu-companies-mark...

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#92

Post by hparadiz »

epolanski wrote: post #45
hparadiz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google made Android open source for free and you can even see this on this on HN as everyone glazes GrapheneOS. Without Android there would not be an entire ecosystem of software. Google even complied with a previous rulings about search engine choice and browser choice. In fact Android has always allowed you to set those things. As usual Europe can't innovate so just taxes people out of their market entirely. Why wo…

The EU's concern is less "is it technically possible?" and more whether Google's licensing and commercial agreements discourage effective competition. In particular: - Google forced every manufacturer to have search and chrome on every android phone if they wanted access to Google Play. No technical reason, just forcing their position. This is why Samsung, despite investing on their browser, was still forced to ship…

The point of those agreements is to make sure those phone manufacturers didn't basterdize android with their garbage crapware like they all want to do. Google is actually protecting the average user in this situation by mandating some standards. They could simply lock Android down as closed source forever and move on from all of this.

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#93

Post by InsideOutSanta »

hparadiz wrote: post #82
cryptonym wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you are right on this. What's the point of hurting yourself? There would be no meaningful benefit.

Oh man you wanna talk about benefits? I actually don't even think the US should have given the internet to the world. It's basically been one giant gift. Sure it's created a situation where we sell the tech both as software and hardware and that has allowed us to redirect wealth from the world to the US however in hindsight it's making our enemies stronger and allowing technology like drones to proliferate. An altern…

> where as if we never allowed advanced chips to proliferate around the world we would be sitting high on tech that is basically magic to the rest of the world

Much of America's technological progress is a direct result of them selling tech to the rest of the world and becoming the world's tech hub. Do you think that not selling anything to anyone outside the US would have had zero impact on tech progress across the world?

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#94

Post by Ravus »

abc123abc123 wrote: post #39
9dev wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As he just found out, that's exactly what the EU can do. And as he's about to find out, the EU is way too important a market for the American economy to ignore or pull out of. Play on your neighbour's yard, obey their rules.

I think rather, that it is the EU who cannot live without US cloud services and AI-services. Imagine if the US, behind closed doors of course, threatened to cut off all cloud services. Huge parts of the public and private sector could collapse.

> In the cases provided for by the law and with provisions for compensation, private property may be expropriated for reasons of general interest.

Excerpt from article 42 of the Italian constitution. This would cover, for instance, the entire eu-south-1 availability zone in AWS. I'm sure that other member states have their own provisions and you need to keep in mind that Google/Amazon/Microsoft employees in the relevant countries would predictably comply with local authorities, not obey a foreign power trying to collapse their governments.

If your power comes from saying "I own that", it's crucial not to enter complete hostility with nations, the only entities who can reply, "Says who?".

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#95

Post by InsideOutSanta »

input_sh wrote: post #83
glimshe wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU can certainly do a lot, with the exception of producing their own major tech companies.

The end goal shouldn't be "monopolies, but European", the end goal should be no monopolies.

It's funny how people complain that the EU has no Google, when Google should never have been allowed to exist in the first place. The current tech dystopia is a direct result of the US failing to enforce its antitrust laws.

Major tech companies are a bug, not a feature.

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#96

Post by stogot »

maxldn wrote: post #49

> Europe’s top court has upheld Google’s fine of around 4.1 billion euros ($4.67 billion) over alleged anti-competitive practices. If they lost the case, and the appeal was dismissed, what is ‘alleged’ about it?

I noticed too this in another recent court case journalism recently. Bad journalism or fear?

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#97

Post by antonvs »

hparadiz wrote: post #68
f6v wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We would build our own alternatives. Right, and we haven’t because we just don’t wanna? The gap between US/China and the EU in AI is becoming wider by the day. Russia has like 3-4 large tech companies (Sber, Yandex, VK, and maybe Ozon). And they completely rely on foreign hardware. I don’t even want to imagine how could Russia start building frontier AI in these circumstances.

It's actually pretty sad for the EU that the biggest tech company names on the continent are all Russian.

Don’t believe everything you read in Pravda.

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#98

Post by Starman_Jones »

hparadiz wrote: post #82
cryptonym wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you are right on this. What's the point of hurting yourself? There would be no meaningful benefit.

Oh man you wanna talk about benefits? I actually don't even think the US should have given the internet to the world. It's basically been one giant gift. Sure it's created a situation where we sell the tech both as software and hardware and that has allowed us to redirect wealth from the world to the US however in hindsight it's making our enemies stronger and allowing technology like drones to proliferate. An altern…

You’re dodging their question.

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#99

Post by antonvs »

netcan wrote: post #16

Apologies for the meta: I feel that our understanding of trust and antitrust, along with the legal and regulatory premises... Just isn't very useful in the 21st century. I understand the motivation, and justification for employing antitrust. Google's business model, and much of modern tech economy is really all about Monopoly-like market power. In fact, one of the main concerns for AI investors is price competition,…

> A company facing market dynamism, price competition... Is unlikely to be investing billions in speculative r&d, for example.

Simple solution: tax companies more heavily and use the money for public investment in research.

The problem with people like Thiel is they’re incapable of thinking past their own self-interest, which makes many perfectly good solutions seem unthinkable to them. No one should listen to them when it comes to anything resembling public policy.

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#100

Post by mrdevlar »

abc123abc123 wrote: post #39
9dev wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As he just found out, that's exactly what the EU can do. And as he's about to find out, the EU is way too important a market for the American economy to ignore or pull out of. Play on your neighbour's yard, obey their rules.

I think rather, that it is the EU who cannot live without US cloud services and AI-services. Imagine if the US, behind closed doors of course, threatened to cut off all cloud services. Huge parts of the public and private sector could collapse.

This already happened. The US government cut off a judge at the international criminal court from her Office365 account because she was pressing a war crimes case against Benjamin Netanyahu.

It's the reason why in the last year you've seen multiple European governments very quickly build an escape hatch against US tech.

We all expect that you'll use our dependency on US services as a weapon, you've already done so, so we're phasing you out. It'll take decades to repair the lost trust in US digital services among the governments of Europe.

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