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Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

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Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#41

Post by 9dev »

netcan wrote: post #16

Apologies for the meta: I feel that our understanding of trust and antitrust, along with the legal and regulatory premises... Just isn't very useful in the 21st century. I understand the motivation, and justification for employing antitrust. Google's business model, and much of modern tech economy is really all about Monopoly-like market power. In fact, one of the main concerns for AI investors is price competition,…

Even in a digital world, monopolies bring clear downsides. The case of Google being able to simply create realities by way of Chrome the rest of the market is forced to follow is a good example here.

I agree that the common understanding of antitrust regulations has become a leaky abstraction, but the general idea is still completely sound to me: A corporation should never be in a position where it can actively suppress competition, or act in a way that is harming consumers without an alternative available.

> Are they regulating monopolies, preventing monopolies, pursuing an abstract notion of Justice?

I suppose all of it; opportunities to prevent some monopolies were missed, to the detriment of all, so regulating them is the only option left. In other cases, we can still act to actively work against emerging monopolies. And above all is clearly a notion of justice, without which democracy itself would be a pretty futile exercise in bureaucracy.

Put differently, what do you suppose the EU should do? Just let global mega-corporations have their way? Even if Google users by and large don't pay for the services, we're all aware they monetise off of users still. To me, this is an implementation detail that doesn't really make a difference to the observation that yes, Google is (and other big tech corps are) clearly in a market dominating position it (they) should not be in.

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#42

Post by hparadiz »

4thguy wrote: post #35
hparadiz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google made Android open source for free and you can even see this on this on HN as everyone glazes GrapheneOS. Without Android there would not be an entire ecosystem of software. Google even complied with a previous rulings about search engine choice and browser choice. In fact Android has always allowed you to set those things. As usual Europe can't innovate so just taxes people out of their market entirely. Why wo…

I think you might need to reconsider how open Android actually is given the recent moves.

You don't even know how good you have it. With incentives like this what company would make anything open in the future? You're punishing them for it. They're gonna make it like iOS precisely because of rulings like this.

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#44

Post by w3ll_w3ll_w3ll »

abc123abc123 wrote: post #39
9dev wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As he just found out, that's exactly what the EU can do. And as he's about to find out, the EU is way too important a market for the American economy to ignore or pull out of. Play on your neighbour's yard, obey their rules.

I think rather, that it is the EU who cannot live without US cloud services and AI-services. Imagine if the US, behind closed doors of course, threatened to cut off all cloud services. Huge parts of the public and private sector could collapse.

We would build our own alternatives. Russia is a much smaller market (120 million people) and they have their own tech companies.

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#45

Post by epolanski »

hparadiz wrote: post #22
bilekas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, these are anti-trust fines. If you want to participate in the EU zone, you can't have monopolistic behaviors. It might sound strange for the US, but you can't simply corner a market and then claim it's innovation and 'good for the customer'. The EU has a LONG history of these regulations, it's nothing new but the more rich a company becomes the more these fines are just the price of doing business. Instead, here'…

Google made Android open source for free and you can even see this on this on HN as everyone glazes GrapheneOS. Without Android there would not be an entire ecosystem of software. Google even complied with a previous rulings about search engine choice and browser choice. In fact Android has always allowed you to set those things. As usual Europe can't innovate so just taxes people out of their market entirely. Why wo…

The EU's concern is less "is it technically possible?" and more whether Google's licensing and commercial agreements discourage effective competition.

In particular:

- Google forced every manufacturer to have search and chrome on every android phone if they wanted access to Google Play. No technical reason, just forcing their position. This is why Samsung, despite investing on their browser, was still forced to ship with Chrome. Browser competition on mobile was rigged by default.

- Manufacturers signed agreements making it de facto impossible to ship Android forks not approved by Google. If you want Play Services, you can't ship a fork Android did not approve, no matter whether you're Sony or Samsung. Again, no technical reasons, just forcing their hand.

- Google paid manufacturers so Google Search was going to be the only search option on that phone, preventing competition.

None of these practices make the landscape better for the user or incentivize competition when the game is rigged at contract level.

As for the rest of your post: Europe (but also Japan or South Korea or pretty much the whole world) does not enjoy the corporate laws, abundance of capital and risk prone mentality the US does. Those are problems. Over regulation (or better, inconsistent one across EU) is also a plague.

But that's unrelated with the fact that companies living in monopolies commercially abuse their positions. US regulators themselves have found the practice of paying Apple to ship Google as default search engine to be questionable.

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#46

Post by pydry »

epolanski wrote: post #30

Why did US antitrust and antimonopoly which has pioneered these concepts has been doing little to nothing for decades? Google is too big and enjoys a monopoly in too many connected sectors (browsers, mobile os, search, advertising, data). Should've been broken up long ago.

because campaign financing laws permit bribery

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#47

Post by tgv »

xienze wrote: post #20
pjc50 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could address the underlying issue?

> Google has attempted to allay the Commission’s concerns over the years such as allowing Android users to switch between search engines and browsers so they are not tied to the company’s apps.

Two words: Google Play.

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#48

Post by jackvalentine »

abc123abc123 wrote: post #39
9dev wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As he just found out, that's exactly what the EU can do. And as he's about to find out, the EU is way too important a market for the American economy to ignore or pull out of. Play on your neighbour's yard, obey their rules.

I think rather, that it is the EU who cannot live without US cloud services and AI-services. Imagine if the US, behind closed doors of course, threatened to cut off all cloud services. Huge parts of the public and private sector could collapse.

You can do that, once, if you want to trigger an avalanche of realignment away from the U.S.

Not only would you lose the 450 million odd EU customers, but the rest of the world will reconsider doing business with you as well.

Re: Google loses fight over record $4.7B EU antitrust fine

#50

Post by 9dev »

hparadiz wrote: post #22
bilekas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, these are anti-trust fines. If you want to participate in the EU zone, you can't have monopolistic behaviors. It might sound strange for the US, but you can't simply corner a market and then claim it's innovation and 'good for the customer'. The EU has a LONG history of these regulations, it's nothing new but the more rich a company becomes the more these fines are just the price of doing business. Instead, here'…

Google made Android open source for free and you can even see this on this on HN as everyone glazes GrapheneOS. Without Android there would not be an entire ecosystem of software. Google even complied with a previous rulings about search engine choice and browser choice. In fact Android has always allowed you to set those things. As usual Europe can't innovate so just taxes people out of their market entirely. Why wo…

> Google made Android open source for free

And Hitler built the highways in Germany. What does that even prove? They can still abuse Android for vendor lock-in, or as a sales funnel to their commercial offerings, or as a data source for a myriad of things users did never really consent to.

> As usual Europe can't innovate so just taxes people out of their market entirely.

Yawn. Last time I looked, big tech is still wholly present all across the EU, only that I have the option to install apps from alternative stores on my iPhone. Also, the EU as an institution isn't the same thing as European companies. Go check the machines in any factory near you, and I can pretty much guarantee you'll find a German one in it.

> Have you guys ever considered making your own operating system?

You might want to look up where Linus Torvalds created Linux.

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