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Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise

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Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#251

Post by defrost »

qsera wrote: post #197
RandomLensman wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How large a trial do you want to run to capture "rare conditions"? Millions? Billions of participants? How long do you want to run trials? Years? Decades?

No, it is not about large trials. It is about changing the attitude of medical practitioners and the media that refuse to acknowledge a vaccine could have caused an adverse effect. I understand that this is to not feed the vaccine hesitancy. But to anyone observing carefully, this is a crucial break in the information chain that can feedback any ill effects of any vaccine back to the creators.

> the attitude of medical practitioners and the media that refuse to acknowledge a vaccine could have caused an adverse effect.

In what alternative group think echo chamber did that happen within?

Here, in the real world, it was acknowledged from the get go that vaccines carried risks and that was why the call went out, from almost the start of 2020, for trial volunteers to find the risks associated with a number of new vaccine variants in the pipelines.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#252

Post by cryptoegorophy »

Waterluvian wrote: post #97
cedws wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC the vaccines were provably linked to the death of young people who had blood clots they shouldn't have had. The common argument made is that the vaccine saved more lives than they took, but this is pretty fucked up IMO. It's the trolley problem IRL - if you force someone to get a vaccine and they die as a result, you are responsible for their death. Also, the manufacturers can never be held responsible, because…

Society is the trolley problem. The balancing act between individual and collective rights is the lever being thrown every time we pass a law or make a regulation. I can absolutely empathize though. It really is fucked up to experience it in the extreme. Usually the trade-offs are much more minor or have a big time delay or are more abstract.

I wonder if this is some kind of prisoners dilemma for society and individual choice.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#253

Post by s1artibartfast »

estearum wrote: post #230
s1artibartfast wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im not sure what point you are making. Are you opposed to public health agencies sharing science based facts and helping people find the data?

No? My point is the data is all available and always has been.

Some data is, some isnt. Most people dont look for it and public health communications isnt data focused.

Nobody was was claiming that people cant google.

I dont know why you bring this up as a gotcha when someone said public health communications should share more data.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#254

Post by tomkarho »

tlogan wrote: post #130

If these mRNA vaccines had not been pushed or mandated, more people would probably think they are safe: there will be no need for any of these reviews. But because they were pushed by the government, many people do not trust them. Sure, they were pushed and mandated for good reasons, but the problem is that a lot of people have already lost trust in the government. That trust was not lost because of one big decision.…

Take the vax or lose your job. Two weeks to flatten the curve. You are killing grandma. "Lab leak" was a dirty word. The science has settled. A bloody live death count on the news.

It seemed that every conceivable way to pressure, force, guilt trip and coerce people into taking the CV was utilized during covid. Enough that no doubt many people are highly suspicious of any authority henceforth and no amount of research will sway them from that. The trust simply isn't there. Yet.

Time is the only cure.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#255

Post by atomicnumber3 »

moralestapia wrote: post #214
marcosdumay wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mRNA vaccines also had a cloth problem (as in, it was extremely rare), that practically disappeared with a change on the application procedure.

Can you elaborate? What was the change?

I am quite curious too. I had heard that, despite arm vascular being very consistent among individuals, it does still vary. And I think for most vaccines I guess it doesn't matter if you hit something other than muscle. Maybe for the mRNA vaccines it does matter? I'm baselessly speculating though. Wish other person hadn't been so vague.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#257

Post by [deleted] »

mrmuagi wrote: post #218
voxl wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing it to the trolley problem is incorrect. COVID had real potential to kill you , even as a young person. At that point its a matter of risk assessment for yourself. Take a 2% chance of dying, a slightly higher chance of reduced quality of life (long COVID), or take a lottery-winning chance of dying to this blood clot. It is appropriate to do the math correctly to decide if this makes sense, but to claim that…

2% chance of death? A quick google shows it to be around 0.16%, and the deaths seem to be allocated to people who are older or just have other comorbities. I think the scientists in retrospect just didnt want hospitals to get full honestly, since they dont have the capacity for it as it is — atleast here in Canada.

[deleted]

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#258

Post by bawolff »

natureiskino wrote: post #235
voxl wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing it to the trolley problem is incorrect. COVID had real potential to kill you , even as a young person. At that point its a matter of risk assessment for yourself. Take a 2% chance of dying, a slightly higher chance of reduced quality of life (long COVID), or take a lottery-winning chance of dying to this blood clot. It is appropriate to do the math correctly to decide if this makes sense, but to claim that…

>Comparing it to the trolley problem is incorrect. COVID had real potential to kill you, even as a young person. I don't think this is correct. If you remove the people with comorbidities, the risk for healthy young people was minuscule, there's way other issues you should concern yourself with at that point, rather than dying from COVID. Vaccinating young people with something that had the potential of side effects…

> the risk for healthy young people was minuscule

Arguably so was the risk from the vaccine.

About 17400 people under 20 died of covid. According to this paper https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8875435/ all the people who died from side effects of the covid vaccine were over 22 (its possible that is not exhaustive, but i can't seem to find any examples of confirmed deaths related to the vaccine for children. If there are any i think its likely the number is in the single digits).

So even if the risk of death from covid in kids is small, its still probably at least 1000 times higher than the risk from the vaccine, and possibly much higher.

> something that had the potential of side effects

Literally everything has potential side effects. Clean drinking water? Has side effects (e.g. less vitamin b12 from poop). All choices have consequences.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#259

Post by [deleted] »

bad_username wrote: post #244
fivetenpen wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were never meant to prevent people from getting COVID. They were meant to prevent people from dying due to COVID. The fact they were able to tell you they had COVID means it was a resounding success (not dead).

> They were never meant to prevent people from getting COVID. "COVID-19 vaccination will help keep you from getting COVID-19" - https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/97780/ You see, this kind of lying and gaslighting is exactly what feeds the distrust in the government and scientific establishment in general public. No number of studies is going to reverse that any time soon.

[deleted]

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#260

Post by InsideOutSanta »

zmgsabst wrote: post #222
Waterluvian wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society is the trolley problem. The balancing act between individual and collective rights is the lever being thrown every time we pass a law or make a regulation. I can absolutely empathize though. It really is fucked up to experience it in the extreme. Usually the trade-offs are much more minor or have a big time delay or are more abstract.

Lots of societies who started with some killing “for the common good” ended in atrocities. The statistics on men under 25 are still horrific and suggest this was in fact the latter category: atrocity masquerading behind that euphemism.

Do you apply that same standard to other things, like cars? Do you feel allowing people to drive is also society "killing for the common good"?

After more than eight billion doses of the vaccine, about twenty deaths were causally linked to the vaccine. Five times as many people die every day from traffic in the US alone, many of them children.

What about gun ownership? How many people does that "kill for the common good"?

And by that measure, isn't not vaccinating people an even bigger atrocity? Aren't you also arguing to kill people "for the common good" by not mandating vaccination?

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