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European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

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Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aren't monopolies is what we end up by default if have no regulation at all? No. Monopolies are only inevitable if the goods aren't elastic, if there is a large cost of entry into the market, or if its a market you can create a moat that is unsurmountable. Many markets don't have that even with 0 regulation, but might have second order problems like firms creating unsafe products for example. But in general regulat…

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I mean, has there any empirical evidence disproven any of those base assumptions?

In econ the easiest part is to create a model, the hardest part is seeing it crash against reality. But the basis of monopolies seems to be pretty thoroughly tested. The biggest issues you have now are Chesterton Fence's. Were its hard to know what laws and regulations are therefore safety, parity and economic performance and ones are only creating friction with no benefit due to years of laws being put on top of other laws

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#82
post #36

The EU reference for wallets strictly required google play services https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/eudi-app-andro... So Italy's IO app https://github.com/pagopa/io-app (wallet, documents, age verification) continuously refuses the users' request for GrapheneOS support and requires google. Nothing will change until the lawsuits start coming in. The only hope is the motorola/grapheneOS collaboration and…

There is too much corruption, nothing can be done at this point. Atleast CIE app works on graphene for now so I can do everything else on the web. If they block that idk what I would even do.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#83
post #49

EU should have mandated a user-facing authentication scheme using a random string as the only authentication factor for everything. Pretty much like the API tokens for contemporary enterprise software, except that they would be used by ordinary people and not by application developers. And complement it with hardware tokens for highly sensitive applications. Passkeys could have been that, but they were quickly subver…

But this does not allow tracking nor marketing, so why would they do that?

Because of Digital Sovereignty concerns?

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#84
post #8
post #4

A European digital ID system that is entirely dependent on 2 US companies. Wasn't there some talk about the pressing need for European digital sovereignty recently? Or was that just performative nonsense?

The US can call Austria in 5 minutes and with no burden of proof get the airspace permit for a head of sovereign state revoked and the plane swatted instantly upon landing, because someone might have been on board (he wasn’t) whose only real crime was embarrassing the USA by exposing their fundamentally unconstitutional lawbreaking. Same goes with the prosecutors in Sweden; a phone call and the US got, not charges (a…

Neither US or EU are monoblocks though.

Obviously, on both side (and beyond) they are nice people trying to plan good things without being too naive. But bragging all day through and destroy all that is in your power is both easier and more attention grabbing than discrete hard work at building better future for everybody.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spoken like a true 120-year who trusts blindly everything he hears online from Rothbard This ad hominem stuff is genuinely worthless.

I don't think so. Because the theories about elastic markets and monopolies do have a high 'spherical frictionless cow` smell. And they are posed here as gospel. So while it might be a bit of an ad hominem to frame someone as a 120 year old it does succinctly point out a problem and hence adds information.

> And they are posed here as gospel

The same could be said for people who suggest regulation for every problem that comes up, even for problems that were caused by regulation. Maybe we have our blindspots, but the "regulate everything" crowd is much louder and more prevalent on HN than the free market absolutists.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#86
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe will never have digital sovereignty from the US. It will take 100 years and an extremely expensive, government-mandated reimplementation of every critical US tech service and company. No EU country is putting up budget for this, and no private enterprise is going to do it because building a worse version of AWS just so that it is "European" makes no financial sense and would most likely just fail anyway.

> building a worse version of AWS just so that it is "European" makes no financial sense Unless it becomes necessary because of EU regulation?

Can you mention a single decent product that came out "because of EU regulation"?

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#87
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this does not allow tracking nor marketing, so why would they do that?

Because of Digital Sovereignty concerns?

...how does that align with what the EU government is doing? The whole point is for you NOT to be sovereign!!!

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#88
post #82
post #36

The EU reference for wallets strictly required google play services https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/eudi-app-andro... So Italy's IO app https://github.com/pagopa/io-app (wallet, documents, age verification) continuously refuses the users' request for GrapheneOS support and requires google. Nothing will change until the lawsuits start coming in. The only hope is the motorola/grapheneOS collaboration and…

There is too much corruption, nothing can be done at this point. Atleast CIE app works on graphene for now so I can do everything else on the web. If they block that idk what I would even do.

Don't assume corruption for something that can be attributed to not giving a fuck.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#89
post #69
post #4

A European digital ID system that is entirely dependent on 2 US companies. Wasn't there some talk about the pressing need for European digital sovereignty recently? Or was that just performative nonsense?

> Wasn't there some talk about the pressing need for European digital sovereignty recently? At FOSDEM, we discuss this at great length. There has been some movement, and I am optimistic that it is improving year on year.

I'm sorry but clearly the introduction of these apps with these requirements in the near past and near future represent regression over time rather than improvement.

I think it was last year that there was a good presentation from them about how they were going to use ZKP and it was indeed very trust inspiring. But do you think the latest digital wallet solution from eg Danish government uses ZKP? Of course not!

I have to say that the tune they play at FOSDEM and what we see put into production are just two different things.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#90

Regulations create monopolies. Even when regulations are aimed at curbing the control of giants, smaller players usually can't afford them and lose market share. This is actually taught as a competitive advantage strategy in business school. Corporations lobby the government to implement laws that seem to hurt them but in actuality create an uneven playing field where marketshare becomes available due to the higher i…

> Regulations create monopolies. Even when regulations are aimed at curbing the control of giants, smaller players usually can't afford them and lose market share. This is actually taught as a competitive advantage strategy in business school. Corporations lobby the government to implement laws that seem to hurt them but in actuality create an uneven playing field where marketshare becomes available due to the higher implementation cost.

The only way to guarantee a monopoly is to have a total lack of regulation. It's known that every "free" market will tend towards monopoly due the 1% law. Regulations are the only way to actually guarantee free markets because perfect free markets only exists in abstract, not in reality. Sometimes, a free market is the wrong solution and you need a regulated monopoly instead and with identity that's the best solution. Why? Because identity is unique to the individual. A individual must (in theory) only have one identity and with very extreme and usually well documented exceptions, such identity doesn't change. The state is the one that must provide a good way for identity and if smaller countries doesn't have the resources, then big countries should provide for all. Also, it removes incompatibility inter-countries while keeping private interests out.

The state should have the sole monopoly on attesting to anyone identity. Because they are the only ones that are not affected by market conditions. This is how countries that have advanced in this topic actually work. If individual states can't reach a common solution, then the collective must do so. The collective failed here because it recommended a private solution rather than mandated a european one. Private sector must not dictate what or how identity is attested, because the private sector has it's profit pursuing agenda, state must evaluate solutions but it's up to the states to run them and implement them.

Market solutions are good for several things, this isn't one of them.

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