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Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

nonogra.ph

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Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#411

Post by Aurornis »

RachelF wrote: post #41

Age verification is just one part of this crackdown. Device attestation is another - making sure you're using an unmodified government approved operating system and apps linked to your ID.

Every time age verification comes up, it’s shocking how many comments here start proposing schemes where we use government-issued tokens combined with secure device attestation to solve the problem.

Some people get so focused on providing a technical solution to the problem of age verification without revealing your full ID to the website that they forget that they’re proposing we start requiring only government-approved devices and operating systems.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#413

Post by DrScientist »

friendzis wrote: post #404
DrScientist wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are confusing the ability to bring information to people, with the ability of people to consume it. As has been mentioned elsewhere on the thread - the real issue is often there are complex 2nd and third order effects, often there are devils in the details. I'm not saying people are not capable of consuming it, I'm saying people don't have the bandwidth. Direct democracy is best when it's used for very specific p…

First, my comment is a knee jerk reaction to the idea of representative democracy falling to authoritarianism, don't take it as seriously in favor of direct democracy. Second, your comment hinges on an interesting hidden assumption. There's implication, that representative democracy selects for a group with inherently higher average bandwidth allocated per proposal and inherently higher average expertise to evaluate…

> There's implication, that representative democracy selects for a group with inherently higher average bandwidth allocated per proposal \

Eh? It's a representatives full time job to consider these things as oppose to the general public doing a full time job and then having to consider legislation.

The difference between lobbying for representatives versus people directly is that representatives have to answer to the people - whereas no-one loses their job as a citizen if they get persuaded by story tellers.

ie both come down to - "it's their job"

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#414

Post by iamnothere »

pibaker wrote: post #25
zarzavat wrote: post #19

I don't like age verification. However I'm not concerned about it. The internet needs new spaces that are more decentralized and less in bed with governments. We already lost our freedom when we agreed to move from IRC to Discord, from phpBB to Reddit, etc. The teenagers who are blocked from mainstream social media will deliver us new free online spaces that are better than what they're blocked from.

What happens when federal agents kick down your front door because you ran a free range mom and pop BBS that did not comply with latest ID verification requirements? Big companies will benefit the most from these regulations. It's just good ol regulatory capture. They will have the most resources to comply with the laws. They have a captive audience that will be more willing to give up their personal info when asked…

This is coming, eventually, and it will be a rehash of the 90s. Someone will have to be a sympathetic test case, and the EFF will get back into full gear.

Then either freedom wins again or freedom-loving individuals move to Soviet-style samizdat, “lying flat”, and clever subversion. And the world continues turning as usual.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#415

Post by [deleted] »

gherkinnn wrote: post #377
echelon wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wait for the brain scan tech to pan out. They'll call you in for a routine scan of your thoughts to make sure you haven't been up to any wrongthink.

I fail do see how can't be pessimistic in the face of this. And yet one must continue the good fight.

[deleted]

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#416

Post by Atreiden »

Aurornis wrote: post #411
RachelF wrote: post #41

Age verification is just one part of this crackdown. Device attestation is another - making sure you're using an unmodified government approved operating system and apps linked to your ID.

Every time age verification comes up, it’s shocking how many comments here start proposing schemes where we use government-issued tokens combined with secure device attestation to solve the problem. Some people get so focused on providing a technical solution to the problem of age verification without revealing your full ID to the website that they forget that they’re proposing we start requiring only government-appr…

Through the lens of information warfare, it's hard not to view those comments as an astroturfing campaign from the exact organizations who would want device attestation

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#417

Post by goalieca »

pc86 wrote: post #338
roenxi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, the evidence is that people already pretty firmly against things like chat control and the will to push it through tends to come from the political circles more than popular belief it is a good idea. I expect that if the measure itself went to a general vote, the majority would be against it once they have to deal with a specific proposal. It takes repeated pushes by the authoritarians looking for an opp…

The problem is that "the authoritarians" (read: almost every politician at every level of government, but a drastically increasing percentage the higher you go) only need to get something passed once then it is there forever. Every law should have an automatic sunset period of 1-10 years that requires it to pass the entire legislative process again, or at least both full chambers + signing.

I remember the patriot act.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#418

Post by DrScientist »

j16sdiz wrote: post #378
graemep wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An alternative would be to select representatives by lot. It would get rid of a political class, would automatically be representative (so no arguments about whether women, minorities, whoever are fairly represented) and not select for people who want power and it would mean people have the same amount of time as those in the current system.

Look at how the American hate jury lottery, I doubt this would be welcomed in the state. It may work in some other country..

> It may work in some other country..

Jury service in the UK is generally seen in a positive light ( despite having far too much hanging around ).

I suspect the US problems could be easily fixed by forcing employers to pay you while you are doing it.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#419

Post by iamnothere »

watwut wrote: post #263
pibaker wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why China and Russia are shiny beacons of democracy and liberalism — they heavily regulate their social media! Seriously, do people not look at history or at least the world around them when they make such claims? Genocides have happened before we had internet, or TV, or radio, or any modern technology people attribute genocides to. Hatred and violence are parts of human nature and trying to blame it on techn…

My point is, the "what happens when federal agents kick down your front" thing is already happening and happened. And curiously, tech libertarians ranting about the freedom were facilitating every single step along the way, actively helping those every single step along the way. > Genocides have happened before we had internet, or TV, or radio, or any modern technology people attribute genocides to. Genocides became…

Not to mention the printing press! Hitler couldn’t have published his vile screed without it.

Haven’t seen any Amish committing genocides, have you?

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#420

Post by intended »

iamnothere wrote: post #399
intended wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You spoke yourself and the status quo. Parents are speaking for their kids in a group and against the status quo. The status quo is not working for them.

“Parents” are not a monolith. Your group will lose this war. Any temporary wins will be worked around and kids will probably lead the charge.

My “group” is not what you think it is.

I have been beating on this drum to avoid this situation for far longer than it has been the topic of interest on HN for the past few months.

We are here, because difficult conversations were avoided and action which could be taken to stop this from metastizing came in the way of growth.

The “parents” win just by having the laws passed, because it makes it clear what guard rails society expects to have in place for internet use.

If you want, I could give you stories of how KYC rules are not followed in India, enabling fraud. How certain rules in the DSA are toothless, resulting in reduced compliance.

Privacy is going to lose. Correction, it is losing, because the people who think they are defending it don’t understand that the forces at play have changed.

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