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Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

nonogra.ph

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Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#381

Post by technol0gic »

Ouman wrote: post #281
onion2k wrote: post #10

If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything so asking them to consider what else might happen if we bring in laws and technical mechanisms to 'protect the children' is unfortunately too a big leap for a lot of them. Most people are bad at spo…

A lot of bad tech policy seems to come from judging a proposal only by its stated intent

carefully crafted stated intent

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#382

Post by intended »

ball_of_lint wrote: post #173
stymaar wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Age verification” isn't a problem in itself, the problem is how it's done. They could issue a physical id card with a cryptographic chip and do the age verification in a zero-knowledge fashion and it would be perfectly fine. The problem is the lack of thinking about the solution and just handwaving “age verification” as a political posture, which is why we end up with half-baked systems.

I strongly disagree. You're framing this as some desirable thing that could be good except that a bad implementation erodes privacy. That's wrong at every step. These bills originate from big tech such as Meta that literally profit from collecting as much personal info from you as possible. https://old.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/1rsn1tm/it_a... But even beyond their tainted origins, you can't implement your…

That Reddit post is feeding more conspiracy thinking than helping.

The facts listed also match the actions of a firm aiming to ensure that the burden of verification does not fall on it, for a legislative process that they know is coming.

Red flag after red flag has been raised on child outcomes and social media, for a decade.

The internet is great for people here on HN, who know enough to avoid getting screwed.

The internet is a grotesque horror show for anyone who is stuck on the wrong side of a customer support system. Plus, most people here are thinking from the perspective of someone in the US or EU. They actually get better support than the rest of the world gets.

Let me be clear - I hate that we are at this juncture. However willful ignorance of the harms being inflicted on users is palliative care for our feelings. It means that one day, there is going to be a confrontation between a techie advocating for privacy and the people whose lives are being upended by tech.

Privacy has to be protected effectively, which means acknowledging the hurt and providing solutions for that.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#383

Post by SubmarineClub »

friendzis wrote: post #166
roenxi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, the evidence is that people already pretty firmly against things like chat control and the will to push it through tends to come from the political circles more than popular belief it is a good idea. I expect that if the measure itself went to a general vote, the majority would be against it once they have to deal with a specific proposal. It takes repeated pushes by the authoritarians looking for an opp…

When you think about it, the idea of a representative democracy is rooted in the technical difficulties of implementing a direct democracy: both spread of information/discussion to the masses and organizing the votes. In this day and age, probably with a relatively tiny investment into public access points, we could very reasonably have a technically functional direct democracy. The legislative cycle is already authe…

> idea of a representative democracy is rooted in the technical difficulties of implementing a direct democracy

In the US at least, no it is not. The founders were incredibly concerned about the ‘passions of the mob’ and deliberately built a system that they hoped would temper the excesses of the public.

And after seeing the wacko stuff going on in California, I can’t blame them!

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#384

Post by chrisjj »

kulahan wrote: post #60
vasco wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the parent prove they are the parent. All you need is to think about the next step, come on now.

…upon device purchase? Very obviously?

How someone proves parentage of a given child upon device purchase is far from obvious.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#385

Post by zrn900 »

Varelion wrote: post #349

Gonna repost this comment I made last week, as no one interacted with its core idea. I am torn. I have bore first-hand witness to the scale of the PsyOps war waged on the American people by institutions near and far. Artroturfing to sew division to one means of another. In all these operations, anonymity is what drives it. I was born and raised in the anonymous internet, and tasted its freedoms. I oppose censorship.…

> I have bore first-hand witness to the scale of the PsyOps war waged on the American people by institutions near and far.

You can be sure that none of those organizations will be affected by it. Especially the domestic ones.

> But, at this point, I have come to wonder it it would be best to always have your real-life personality attached to all you do.

No:

https://bianet.org/haber/eu-strips-journalist-huseyin-dogru-...

And that is Europe. The US wouldnt hesitate 2 seconds before shoving you into a federal prison.

> It is the nature of the internet that you could never achieve absolute censorship

Oh yes you can. The only reason you have a 'free' internet now is because the US had to rush its internet out without implementing the censorship and control mechanisms it planned because the USSR was about to release its own internet. Now they are making up for their mistake.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#386

Post by intrasight »

Ouman wrote: post #292
RachelF wrote: post #41

Age verification is just one part of this crackdown. Device attestation is another - making sure you're using an unmodified government approved operating system and apps linked to your ID.

Age verification is the visible, easy-to-sell layer. Device attestation is the more structural one...

That's why the politicians need to make it clear that what they're talking about is device attestation.

I'm an optimist, but I don't think any age verification laws will gain traction without first solving the device attestation problem.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#387

Post by intended »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #324
stymaar wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids will simply find a way to circumvent it without any extra steps. This is just an argument against any regulation whatsoever. Yes, some people will find ways to do illegal stuff, but that doesn't mean forbidding stuff is useless. For instance gangs members always find a way to get access to weapons even in countries where firearms is regulated, but there are still pretty much zero mass slaughter in schools in t…

Sorry, I don't want to involve the government in anything when I just want to communicate. It is a pretty simple request and it is not comparable to anything that can endanger others directly. You don't need government ID to talk to people and share info. You don't need government ID to take a dump. Also the criticism of the article is just ignored while it is a very likely development and lack of imagination isn't a…

You spoke yourself and the status quo.

Parents are speaking for their kids in a group and against the status quo. The status quo is not working for them.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#388

Post by zrn900 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #362
Varelion wrote: post #349

Gonna repost this comment I made last week, as no one interacted with its core idea. I am torn. I have bore first-hand witness to the scale of the PsyOps war waged on the American people by institutions near and far. Artroturfing to sew division to one means of another. In all these operations, anonymity is what drives it. I was born and raised in the anonymous internet, and tasted its freedoms. I oppose censorship.…

Interesting point, as at one point large internet companies like Facebook and Google/Youtube made real names mandatory - Facebook going as far as asking your "friends" to rat on you. In theory it was a great way to prevent abuse - are people still horrible on the internet if they use their real name? Turns out they are, because it only took a few years of internet for people to no longer have any shame.

> are people still horrible on the internet if they use their real name

Yep. Google forced real names on youtube. People kept acting the same way.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#389

Post by zrn900 »

TrackerFF wrote: post #245

In the intel industry, it is known that metadata is more or less enough to identify people. That's state/military intel. Several countries have already implemented bulk acquisition / collection of data that "crosses the borders", which is a ridiculous concept. If you're located in, say, Norway - and send someone who is also located in Norway a message via Messenger, there's a good likelihood that message will go to s…

The objective of these digital id laws being pushed through age verification is to be able to easily ! legally ! prosecute the dissidents. That's one thing the intelligence agencies could not do with their illegally collected data.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#390

Post by zrn900 »

zarzavat wrote: post #40
pibaker wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens when federal agents kick down your front door because you ran a free range mom and pop BBS that did not comply with latest ID verification requirements? Big companies will benefit the most from these regulations. It's just good ol regulatory capture. They will have the most resources to comply with the laws. They have a captive audience that will be more willing to give up their personal info when asked…

It seems unlikely that running a website without age verification will be illegal across the entire planet.

People are downvoting this, but the objective is precisely that.
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