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The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

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Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#61

Post by SteveGerencser »

supertroop wrote: post #45
itsamario wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting rights was a superficial act of righteousness. Allowing anyone to vote that can color in lines was when the patients started running the place. When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom.

We went from critical thinking to only some people can participate in society in the blink of an eye. What if you’re one of the people deemed too dumb? Did that ever occur to you?

I'm fine with a simple, basic test to be able to vote. 5 T/F questions, you only need to get 3 right to vote. Basics. Is the earth flat? Did humans land on the moon? Do brown cows produce chocolate milk? You know, the basics. If I couldn't pass such a test, I should not be allowed to vote.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#62

Post by elcritch »

itsamario wrote: post #44
elcritch wrote: post #42

It’s sad to me after reading stories like this how much Western societies have generally lost the pursuit of Bildung (wisdom, virtue) that shaped men like Wilhelm von Humboldt's. I’ve come to firmly believe that a society which looses the pursuit of the noble in the individual in exchange for mere technological excellence will in the long run loose technical ability as well. It’s not even about a religious ideals, bu…

Voting rights was a superficial act of righteousness. Allowing anyone to vote that can color in lines was when the patients started running the place. When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom.

Not really, it was based on the belief of the ability and dignity of the individual.

My mind goes more to the Cultural Revolution in China where millions were killed or starved because a bunch of college students decided that the enemies were the “five black categories” who were enemies of “the people”.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#63

Post by bluGill »

pstuart wrote: post #55
WillAdams wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue even the kids on the trade class track would need math: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30685840-practical-shop-...

Sure, my point wasn't to disparage math or its value -- simply that there are 2 distinct tracts that should be followed: 1. STEM: To Calculus and beyond 2. Everyone else: math for mere mortals; practical applied mathematics where every bit of it contains a "here's where it's gonna help you" payoff.

When kids reach late teens I'll buy that. However, let's be very cautious about separating kids too early. Kids do mature at different rates and some will realize that they need to study sooner while others smart kids decide to slack off and do terrible.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#64

Post by sxzygz »

SteveGerencser wrote: post #61
supertroop wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We went from critical thinking to only some people can participate in society in the blink of an eye. What if you’re one of the people deemed too dumb? Did that ever occur to you?

I'm fine with a simple, basic test to be able to vote. 5 T/F questions, you only need to get 3 right to vote. Basics. Is the earth flat? Did humans land on the moon? Do brown cows produce chocolate milk? You know, the basics. If I couldn't pass such a test, I should not be allowed to vote.

I don’t really want to participate in this discussion, however:

As I stand on the flats of Salt Lake, the Earth is definitely flat. Also, I’m sure there are brown cows that produce milk that’s turned to chocolate milk. And since I didn’t directly observe humans landing on the moon, I can’t be certain of it to say.

Am I being facetious, perhaps. But I want to illustrate that people can be broadly split in to two camps. Those that believe individual agency is necessary for all. And those that believe individual agency can only be preserved for all by restricting it to the chosen.

If you’re happy with affairs however whatever camp you’re in differs from whatever camp your society is in, you will turn a blind eye. However, if you’re unhappy then you’ll feel all your problems must stem from your society’s fundamental misconception.

The world has lost, on my opinion, a mass of level-headed people. We don’t need to agree, but we need to talk. Forums like this depend on people taking their time to be nuanced and clear, however there is little reward in this as the quality of the HN audience slowly decays as the attention span of the general populace from which this audience is derived itself decays.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#66

Post by robocat »

zkmon wrote: post #43

I have a different view from a developing country. Those were great ideals and pristine origins of schooling. But somewhere post-industrialization, schooling turned into training camps that would suck away the youth from their families, villages and rural professions, into work that would power the clerical and factory jobs. It was called nation building, economy work, office work, machine work, transport work etc. B…

In my experience, highly motivated independent people do well in their lives.

> 8. He ran away > I would rate his life quality and achievements far better

Selection bias : always a poor starter for cause and effect arguments.

All my smartest friends left school at 15 or earlier. Also selection bias since I haven't made friends with any dummies that left school early. I wish I had been that driven - I was a slow-learner to understand the value of non-academic skills.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#67

Post by deterministic »

The public school system in most countries has been spectacularly successful. In fact, much of the West's success is built on it.

Having said that, people are different. They have different IQs, interests, abilities, motivation, and levels of family support. No education system will work equally well for everyone.

That isn't a problem with today's public school system. It's a problem that any education system would face. Someone with an IQ of 70 will never understand concepts like compound interest, no matter how much time, money, or tutoring is provided. While a smart and motivated person will usually learn despite a mediocre school system.

This is why every attempt to "fix" the public school system has failed spectacularly.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#68

Post by whatever1 »

We don’t want too many independent critical thinkers. This is how corruption gets born. People being too smart to follow the rules.

See Latin America, south Europe. Inconceivable wealth and natural resources. Full of independent thinkers cannot even do basic things without bribes.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#69

Post by mcmoor »

bluGill wrote: post #63
pstuart wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, my point wasn't to disparage math or its value -- simply that there are 2 distinct tracts that should be followed: 1. STEM: To Calculus and beyond 2. Everyone else: math for mere mortals; practical applied mathematics where every bit of it contains a "here's where it's gonna help you" payoff.

When kids reach late teens I'll buy that. However, let's be very cautious about separating kids too early. Kids do mature at different rates and some will realize that they need to study sooner while others smart kids decide to slack off and do terrible.

Yeah I've seen people try to push choice into kids as early as possible, while some students remain in doubt long into adulthood.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#70

Post by WillAdams »

ndriscoll wrote: post #56
bluGill wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there is a point that on balance I have to disagree, there are a lot of things I want students to achieve that are just hard and they won't be motivated to. I want every student to have a good education in math, even though it is hard to do that. For that matter, most of it was forgotten by now, but it was hard to learn how to read. Most students wouldn't learn how to read if they were not forced to at some poi…

The neat thing about stratifying by ability is that it doesn't require any additional resources or special programs. If you have 20 teachers in a school, you divide the student population into roughly 5%-wide ability bands instead of roughly 5%-wide age cohorts with random ability, and that's it. Mastery learning is also more effective than moving on with knowledge gaps, so this should be expected to raise everyone's…

Exactly. The school was laid out in grids, and identical layouts between floors (higher grades higher up) with identical class sequencing for each grade, so at class change time, it was easy for even young kids to get to their next class.
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