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The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

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Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#31

Post by WillAdams »

TimByte wrote: post #18
netcan wrote: post #15

There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are. IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization: (a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great…

Mandatory education is still probably better than the alternative but it does seem to create a constant tension: the system has to serve students who want very different things from it

The solution would seem to be a flexible system which identifies and works with the needs of each student.

A school system I attended when I was young divided classes between academic and social --- social classes were attended at one's age level, academic classes were attended at a student's ability levels, I believe that there were also trade school tracks, prompted by students taking Sloyd Woodworking claseses:

https://rainfordrestorations.com/tag/sloyd/

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#33

Post by Aeolun »

sandworm101 wrote: post #26
netcan wrote: post #15

There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are. IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization: (a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great…

It is naive to think that gradeschool is all about education when it serves so many other social functions. Firstly, it is free daily child care, a concept that allows parents to be more productive workers. A school is the point where various government agencies have contact with children. Vacinations, nutrition and the general welfare of kids is daily inspected. If a kid is in trouble, a teacher is the most likely g…

> It isnt about actually learning anything.

It is definitely appreciated if you actually learn something there, and often required to earn any of the goodies.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#34

Post by Aeolun »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #29
jona-f wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having grown up in Germany I have firsthand experience how Humboldt's ideals fall short. I don't think I fully agree your explanation. a) Teachers themselves went through this system, so if it's so great, it should produce plenty of great teachers b) Now we are blaming the kids for the failure of the system? c) Yes, absolutely, but is the bureaucracy really inevitable, or is it even contradictory to the original idea…

After WWI, the "Great War", everyone thought it was the final war, and would never be repeated. (So no profound changes in the educational system were applied). After WWII, and observing how it could occur despite the recent occurrence of WWI, it was decided to put extra focus on the horrors of war in Western Europe. Both on allied as well as axis side, sure, but especially on axis educational systems. Having grown u…

What’s so terrible about the WW1 (industrial warfare) and WW2 (industrial extermination) curricula taught in Europe? I don’t think they’re designed to be fun. Quite the opposite.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#35

Post by obscurette »

netcan wrote: post #15

There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are. IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization: (a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great…

> Universal, mandatory education rarely achieves this attitude.

As a former teacher I think that's very common, but a fatal error to assume that it's something that it's up to education to achieve this at all. It's up to student to decide what they want to achieve, what their motivation is, whether they are motivated at all etc. The point of education have always been to provide students tools.

Btw, what makes a great teacher? One of my most influential teachers was universally hated by the rest of the class.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#36

Post by Aeolun »

Aurornis wrote: post #25
lmf4lol wrote: post #9

I was just reading Schillers letters on the Aesthetic Education of Man. It made me sad that we have such profound insight available on beauty and a fulfilling life, and still produce a school system that is completely contrary to a proper human existence. I also vividly recall pg’s reflections on the school system in Hackers and Founders. He was spot on with his observations and still is. My own experience made so mu…

> They dont learn proper reading and math, they dony learn creativity. Its just a big waste of time sending them there to be honest. Heck, they watch 1 hour of stupid TV shows there everyday.. why??? I am not in Amsterdam, but this seems very unexpectedly wrong. For as much as people complain about the US education system, I’ve been amazed watching how early my kids and friends’ kids at various schools around here ha…

I think this is a thing in the Netherlands, where schools are almost painfully standardized. It only matters to a degree which primary school you go to, you’ll have more or less the same education.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#37

Post by lmf4lol »

Aurornis wrote: post #25
lmf4lol wrote: post #9

I was just reading Schillers letters on the Aesthetic Education of Man. It made me sad that we have such profound insight available on beauty and a fulfilling life, and still produce a school system that is completely contrary to a proper human existence. I also vividly recall pg’s reflections on the school system in Hackers and Founders. He was spot on with his observations and still is. My own experience made so mu…

> They dont learn proper reading and math, they dony learn creativity. Its just a big waste of time sending them there to be honest. Heck, they watch 1 hour of stupid TV shows there everyday.. why??? I am not in Amsterdam, but this seems very unexpectedly wrong. For as much as people complain about the US education system, I’ve been amazed watching how early my kids and friends’ kids at various schools around here ha…

we had a pretty good education system. But it got much more worse in the last decade(s).

And this is not only my personal anecdote, There are numerous studies on this. One for instance, that really shook me, reported that around 1/3 of graduates from the “practical level” of secondary school cant tell you what a newspaper article was about after reading it. And this was not the case “back in the days”.

Germany has the same problem btw. They perform less and less well at all kinds of standardized tests. Just like the Dutch.

So there is sth seriously wrong!

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#38

Post by bluGill »

obscurette wrote: post #35
netcan wrote: post #15

There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are. IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization: (a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great…

> Universal, mandatory education rarely achieves this attitude. As a former teacher I think that's very common, but a fatal error to assume that it's something that it's up to education to achieve this at all. It's up to student to decide what they want to achieve, what their motivation is, whether they are motivated at all etc. The point of education have always been to provide students tools. Btw, what makes a grea…

As a taxpayer and citizen, there are good reasons I want every kid to achieve great education results. The fact that it is probably impossible, is irrelevant. I want that. This is why we have universal education in most countries.

Despite the fact that the results aren't what they could be in an ideal world where every student is motivated, the results are much better than any place where education is not universal.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#39

Post by Aeolun »

lmf4lol wrote: post #37
Aurornis wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They dont learn proper reading and math, they dony learn creativity. Its just a big waste of time sending them there to be honest. Heck, they watch 1 hour of stupid TV shows there everyday.. why??? I am not in Amsterdam, but this seems very unexpectedly wrong. For as much as people complain about the US education system, I’ve been amazed watching how early my kids and friends’ kids at various schools around here ha…

we had a pretty good education system. But it got much more worse in the last decade(s). And this is not only my personal anecdote, There are numerous studies on this. One for instance, that really shook me, reported that around 1/3 of graduates from the “practical level” of secondary school cant tell you what a newspaper article was about after reading it. And this was not the case “back in the days”. Germany has th…

> reported that around 1/3 of graduates from the “practical level” of secondary school cant tell you what a newspaper article was about after reading it

I feel like this has more to do with motivation than lack of understanding. They could, but that would require them to actually read it, and that is effort that is better spent elsewhere.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#40

Post by bluGill »

WillAdams wrote: post #31
TimByte wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandatory education is still probably better than the alternative but it does seem to create a constant tension: the system has to serve students who want very different things from it

The solution would seem to be a flexible system which identifies and works with the needs of each student. A school system I attended when I was young divided classes between academic and social --- social classes were attended at one's age level, academic classes were attended at a student's ability levels, I believe that there were also trade school tracks, prompted by students taking Sloyd Woodworking claseses: ht…

While there is a point that on balance I have to disagree, there are a lot of things I want students to achieve that are just hard and they won't be motivated to. I want every student to have a good education in math, even though it is hard to do that. For that matter, most of it was forgotten by now, but it was hard to learn how to read. Most students wouldn't learn how to read if they were not forced to at some point.

Which is to say, the vast majority of students are not different. There are some much below average kids who need a lot of help but never will reach anything, but the vast majority are very close to average and we don't need particularly anything better for them than anyone else. What we need is to give the programs we give to the most gifted students to the less gifted students because they would benefit from the same attention

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