Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

cbc.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 78 posts

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#41

Post by obscurette »

bluGill wrote: post #38
obscurette wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Universal, mandatory education rarely achieves this attitude. As a former teacher I think that's very common, but a fatal error to assume that it's something that it's up to education to achieve this at all. It's up to student to decide what they want to achieve, what their motivation is, whether they are motivated at all etc. The point of education have always been to provide students tools. Btw, what makes a grea…

As a taxpayer and citizen, there are good reasons I want every kid to achieve great education results. The fact that it is probably impossible, is irrelevant. I want that. This is why we have universal education in most countries. Despite the fact that the results aren't what they could be in an ideal world where every student is motivated, the results are much better than any place where education is not universal.

Yes. And that's why universal education has been success and why a modern idea of education – "let's find out everyone individual needs are, adjust to these, show how cool it is to think critically etc" – is such a disaster.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#42

Post by elcritch »

It’s sad to me after reading stories like this how much Western societies have generally lost the pursuit of Bildung (wisdom, virtue) that shaped men like Wilhelm von Humboldt's.

I’ve come to firmly believe that a society which looses the pursuit of the noble in the individual in exchange for mere technological excellence will in the long run loose technical ability as well.

It’s not even about a religious ideals, but secular ones as well. Really any belief system that puts the onus on individuals to pursue nobleness, as opposed to the more empty “reforming society” or “fixing society” that universities in particular appear fixated on currently.

Reminds me of CS Lewis’ critiques our modern age in “Abolition of Man” who critiqued it very well.

Of course we see this tension of education of the individual vs mass indoctrination in most western public school systems. TFA was a good read, as I’d always assumed and read that universal education was created as just a tool for mass indoctrination for obedient workers.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#43

Post by zkmon »

I have a different view from a developing country.

Those were great ideals and pristine origins of schooling. But somewhere post-industrialization, schooling turned into training camps that would suck away the youth from their families, villages and rural professions, into work that would power the clerical and factory jobs. It was called nation building, economy work, office work, machine work, transport work etc. But the effect was, villages and families were broken.

The nation building happened at the cost of family separation, uprooting of people and families from their native locations, suffering hectic work schedules in alien lands. That's the gift of schooling and higher education.

I have a cousin who escaped schooling when he was 8. He ran away from the town where he was put into school, walked 25 kilometers in the night to reach our village. He never went back to school. Looking back, I would rate his life quality and achievements far better that those of us who went through all the tough exams, roamed around the globe, worked too hard to be in the job etc. he doesn't know about internet, but his health and happiness are far superior due to sticking to his home and farm.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#44

Post by itsamario »

elcritch wrote: post #42

It’s sad to me after reading stories like this how much Western societies have generally lost the pursuit of Bildung (wisdom, virtue) that shaped men like Wilhelm von Humboldt's. I’ve come to firmly believe that a society which looses the pursuit of the noble in the individual in exchange for mere technological excellence will in the long run loose technical ability as well. It’s not even about a religious ideals, bu…

Voting rights was a superficial act of righteousness.

Allowing anyone to vote that can color in lines was when the patients started running the place.

When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#45

Post by supertroop »

itsamario wrote: post #44
elcritch wrote: post #42

It’s sad to me after reading stories like this how much Western societies have generally lost the pursuit of Bildung (wisdom, virtue) that shaped men like Wilhelm von Humboldt's. I’ve come to firmly believe that a society which looses the pursuit of the noble in the individual in exchange for mere technological excellence will in the long run loose technical ability as well. It’s not even about a religious ideals, bu…

Voting rights was a superficial act of righteousness. Allowing anyone to vote that can color in lines was when the patients started running the place. When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom.

We went from critical thinking to only some people can participate in society in the blink of an eye. What if you’re one of the people deemed too dumb? Did that ever occur to you?

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#46

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

sandworm101 wrote: post #26
netcan wrote: post #15

There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are. IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization: (a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great…

It is naive to think that gradeschool is all about education when it serves so many other social functions. Firstly, it is free daily child care, a concept that allows parents to be more productive workers. A school is the point where various government agencies have contact with children. Vacinations, nutrition and the general welfare of kids is daily inspected. If a kid is in trouble, a teacher is the most likely g…

So, your take is that schools are:

1. Free government daycare

2. Inspection/interference with parenting

3. Surveillance towards prosecuting negligent parents

4. Evaluation of conscripts

I think I agree 100%. It is exactly those things, even if I can't be so cheerful as you about it. That's why my children have never stepped foot inside a school.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#47

Post by fasterik »

netcan wrote: post #15

There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are. IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization: (a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great…

>IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization

Liberalism is fundamentally a universalist idea. I mean "liberal" in the original sense: the cultivation of free and indepdendent human beings capable of governing themselves. A democratic society can't survive for long without universal liberal education.

We need to distinguish between education and the education system. You make good points that the system as it is today doesn't scale as much as we might like. But that doesn't mean we should abandon the goal of universal education. Unfortunately, I think the solution requires something much broader and deeper than more schools and more teachers. It requires a culture that values learning and independent thinking, parents who bring up children who are curious and willing to learn, and institutions that uphold these values in society.

We made a lot of progress over the past few centuries, but now there's an increasing number of people who want to question and undermine the core values of liberalism and replace them with something either more elitist, more authoritarian, or both.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#49

Post by pstuart »

bluGill wrote: post #40
WillAdams wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution would seem to be a flexible system which identifies and works with the needs of each student. A school system I attended when I was young divided classes between academic and social --- social classes were attended at one's age level, academic classes were attended at a student's ability levels, I believe that there were also trade school tracks, prompted by students taking Sloyd Woodworking claseses: ht…

While there is a point that on balance I have to disagree, there are a lot of things I want students to achieve that are just hard and they won't be motivated to. I want every student to have a good education in math, even though it is hard to do that. For that matter, most of it was forgotten by now, but it was hard to learn how to read. Most students wouldn't learn how to read if they were not forced to at some poi…

> I want every student to have a good education in math, even though it is hard to do that.

That's a laudable goal but I think it backfires in practice: a lot of students struggle with math and consider it to be torture, and will rarely require the skills and insights that learning algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and calculus will offer. Having done that work I find that I use very little of it in my day to day life (personally and professionally (as a programmer)).

I'm not suggesting that path be eliminated, only that it be an expected track for those interested in a STEM career.

For those who are not, just teaching them math literacy that can be used in contemporary daily life (some statistics, math reasoning (investments and debts), etc.

I love math -- it's the language of the universe! But it shouldn't be used to torture kids who will only learn to say "I hate math".

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#50

Post by bluGill »

obscurette wrote: post #41
bluGill wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a taxpayer and citizen, there are good reasons I want every kid to achieve great education results. The fact that it is probably impossible, is irrelevant. I want that. This is why we have universal education in most countries. Despite the fact that the results aren't what they could be in an ideal world where every student is motivated, the results are much better than any place where education is not universal.

Yes. And that's why universal education has been success and why a modern idea of education – "let's find out everyone individual needs are, adjust to these, show how cool it is to think critically etc" – is such a disaster.

Eventually, though, we do need to say that we need to specialize. To become a great musician, you need to spend hours and hours practicing every day. There isn't time to also be a great physicist if you're going to be a great mathematician. Well, maybe you could be both, but it means you have zero free time at all to spend on things like having a social life is one point of life.

Still, until you're in your mid-teens, your needs are not much different from anyone else. You need to get the basics of education which are the same for everyone. As you get to your late teens, you need to start figuring out what your specialty is going to be and start moving in that direction.

I feel it's important to make this distinction because otherwise it's too easy to be arguing past each other when people don't realize that there are different stages of life that do have different needs.

Post reply on HN