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The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

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Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#51
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a taxpayer and citizen, there are good reasons I want every kid to achieve great education results. The fact that it is probably impossible, is irrelevant. I want that. This is why we have universal education in most countries. Despite the fact that the results aren't what they could be in an ideal world where every student is motivated, the results are much better than any place where education is not universal.

Yes. And that's why universal education has been success and why a modern idea of education – "let's find out everyone individual needs are, adjust to these, show how cool it is to think critically etc" – is such a disaster.

I'm not sure that is the modern idea of education. As you can see in the linked example, it's there 200 years ago at the sunrise of universal and education. I'm sure it was there when Aristotle taught Alexander.

I think we can just call that "good" education vs.. the best we can do.

If you are thinking about the individual, you are going to be thinking about individualization... Like the coach of a gymnastics team, chess club or whatnot.

I agree that from a societal, governmental or taxpayer pov... It's different. That is the "true" perspective if you are doing national policy, which is why that "woke stuff" is so often a disaster when applied to national education systems.

But... as a student or parent... not thinking about it individualistically is pretty pathological.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#52
post #49
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there is a point that on balance I have to disagree, there are a lot of things I want students to achieve that are just hard and they won't be motivated to. I want every student to have a good education in math, even though it is hard to do that. For that matter, most of it was forgotten by now, but it was hard to learn how to read. Most students wouldn't learn how to read if they were not forced to at some poi…

> I want every student to have a good education in math, even though it is hard to do that. That's a laudable goal but I think it backfires in practice: a lot of students struggle with math and consider it to be torture, and will rarely require the skills and insights that learning algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and calculus will offer. Having done that work I find that I use very little of it in my day to day life…

I would argue even the kids on the trade class track would need math:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30685840-practical-shop-...

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#53
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And that's why universal education has been success and why a modern idea of education – "let's find out everyone individual needs are, adjust to these, show how cool it is to think critically etc" – is such a disaster.

Eventually, though, we do need to say that we need to specialize. To become a great musician, you need to spend hours and hours practicing every day. There isn't time to also be a great physicist if you're going to be a great mathematician. Well, maybe you could be both, but it means you have zero free time at all to spend on things like having a social life is one point of life. Still, until you're in your mid-teens…

Good point. As a former highschool teacher, I tend to think on this (K12 in US terms?) level, but of course universal higher education wouldn't work. Some comments though. In my experience this point in life when people will figure out their direction varies wildly. I had classmates who figured it out in their early teens and others who found their way in late twenties. And even more important point against specializing too early - some of them had already three careers (I'm in my sixties). Times change, jobs disappear and strong universal foundation helps enormously if you have to start a new career.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting rights was a superficial act of righteousness. Allowing anyone to vote that can color in lines was when the patients started running the place. When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom.

We went from critical thinking to only some people can participate in society in the blink of an eye. What if you’re one of the people deemed too dumb? Did that ever occur to you?

[deleted]

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#55
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want every student to have a good education in math, even though it is hard to do that. That's a laudable goal but I think it backfires in practice: a lot of students struggle with math and consider it to be torture, and will rarely require the skills and insights that learning algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and calculus will offer. Having done that work I find that I use very little of it in my day to day life…

I would argue even the kids on the trade class track would need math: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30685840-practical-shop-...

Sure, my point wasn't to disparage math or its value -- simply that there are 2 distinct tracts that should be followed:

1. STEM: To Calculus and beyond

2. Everyone else: math for mere mortals; practical applied mathematics where every bit of it contains a "here's where it's gonna help you" payoff.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#56
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution would seem to be a flexible system which identifies and works with the needs of each student. A school system I attended when I was young divided classes between academic and social --- social classes were attended at one's age level, academic classes were attended at a student's ability levels, I believe that there were also trade school tracks, prompted by students taking Sloyd Woodworking claseses: ht…

While there is a point that on balance I have to disagree, there are a lot of things I want students to achieve that are just hard and they won't be motivated to. I want every student to have a good education in math, even though it is hard to do that. For that matter, most of it was forgotten by now, but it was hard to learn how to read. Most students wouldn't learn how to read if they were not forced to at some poi…

The neat thing about stratifying by ability is that it doesn't require any additional resources or special programs. If you have 20 teachers in a school, you divide the student population into roughly 5%-wide ability bands instead of roughly 5%-wide age cohorts with random ability, and that's it.

Mastery learning is also more effective than moving on with knowledge gaps, so this should be expected to raise everyone's outcomes.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#57
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue even the kids on the trade class track would need math: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30685840-practical-shop-...

Sure, my point wasn't to disparage math or its value -- simply that there are 2 distinct tracts that should be followed: 1. STEM: To Calculus and beyond 2. Everyone else: math for mere mortals; practical applied mathematics where every bit of it contains a "here's where it's gonna help you" payoff.

The thing is, I've had shop projects where algebra was quite useful.

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#58
post #16

"Soon, the state's influence on education took hold, with its own agenda. This is explored in part two of the documentary, Humboldt's Ghost." Part two link is not working... https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/1.7175393

The title of pt. 2 is How our education system is far from its original ideals . It's available on apple and audible.

https://www.audible.ca/podcast/How-our-education-system-is-f...

Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is naive to think that gradeschool is all about education when it serves so many other social functions. Firstly, it is free daily child care, a concept that allows parents to be more productive workers. A school is the point where various government agencies have contact with children. Vacinations, nutrition and the general welfare of kids is daily inspected. If a kid is in trouble, a teacher is the most likely g…

So, your take is that schools are: 1. Free government daycare 2. Inspection/interference with parenting 3. Surveillance towards prosecuting negligent parents 4. Evaluation of conscripts I think I agree 100%. It is exactly those things, even if I can't be so cheerful as you about it. That's why my children have never stepped foot inside a school.

There was no cheer in the comment you’re replying to, just facts. The fact that you misinterpreted that is strange.

The fact that you have strong feelings about having your children reviewed by other adults for signs of abuse and neglect is stranger.

You do understand how children are vulnerable and parents aren’t always reliable, yes?

Homeschooling your children can be done well, in theory. However the majority of the time it’s done by imbeciles for religious, political or pseudo-medical reasons and results in children far less educated than the system you criticize and who are also imbeciles.

This is a form of abuse that will destroy a child’s potential far more readily than the four core elements above that you seem to be protesting.

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