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Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

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Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#101

Post by bluescrn »

geremiiah wrote: post #50
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a trend that is growing all over Europe The current system permitting freedom of movement across the continent while devolving immigration policy entirely to members creates a fundamental tension the EU needs to resolve. Because otherwise, Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly, which is bound to generate backlash even if they run a perfect programme.

To me it seems like EU countries are independently embarking on the Canada-policy of importing a whole bunch of South East Asians and Latin Americans. From Hungary to Ireland, you see the same trend. Part of it is by economic necessity. For example finding nursing staff is very challenging and you have to compete with the US and Australia and other rich countries. But part of it doesn't make much sense. We really don…

> For example finding nursing staff is very challenging

No. Finding staff that'll work for very low wages is very challenging. It's not really about bringing in essential skills, it's about driving down wages.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#102

Post by Lanolderen »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #58

I don't get why they would want to do this, when runaway depopulation is the biggest issue facing the world. We're at a point where (I think, controversially) we need to sanction (or more) nations that aren't increasing their population annually. This is an existential threat facing the human race.

It's aimed at immigration. Babies are OK. Not all that incentivized but OK.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#103

Post by greyhound »

viking123 wrote: post #42
FabCH wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration is not devolved. The whole point of Schengen is the opposite of devolution of immigration. You are confusing immigration with naturalization. Only if Berlin starts handing out German passports do they dictate EU immigration single-handedly.

Some countries print them out very liberally though. Sweden did not require financial self-sufficiency or language ability until like 2 weeks ago. I raised this point back in like 2015 and was promptly called a racist. So these have been handed to people who have nothing to do with the country. Few other countries have done this too but less so. Now all their children etc. will have unfettered access to Switzerland.…

Your comments do land on the xenophobic side though. E.g."Indians with German passports": You need to pass a naturalization and language tests before applying for citizenship. Until recently you couldn't even apply without living in the country for 6+ years - now reduced to 4+. So how do you or potential Swiss know they are Indians? The first thing that comes to mind is that you're assuming it by the way they look.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#104

Post by BloondAndDoom »

WarmWash wrote: post #83
throwawaycan wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people have no hope of not making it as a permanent resident or citizen, their incentives to perform well are not as high. Also immigration is a global market, you compete with other countries that might offer better conditions so you lose on the best workforce.

I don't know the overall ratio, but my experience working with many immigrant workers is that they had no real intention of staying and instead are just arbitraging cost of living between [rich country] and [poor country] for their family back home. Emphasis on home .

Sounds like you have a really limited interaction with immigrants. I’m lifelong immigrant (4 different countries) in every single one of those countries majority of immigrants want to stay. Permanent residency is a constant conversation topic. There are definitely immigrants thinking like your explanation, but definitely a minority. .

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#105

Post by aranelsurion »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #38
FabCH wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration is not devolved. The whole point of Schengen is the opposite of devolution of immigration. You are confusing immigration with naturalization. Only if Berlin starts handing out German passports do they dictate EU immigration single-handedly.

> Only if Berlin starts handing out German passports do they dictate EU immigration single-handedly Fair enough and great point. It’s incredibly hard to naturalize in Switzerland. Less so in Germany. (Though still much harder than in America, at least based on my American friends who naturalized there and this Swiss of Indian and Germanic origin who naturalized in America.) It’s fair for those countries to want to ma…

> It’s incredibly hard to naturalize in Switzerland. Less so in Germany

Is it? Asking out of curiosity, from a cursory look both countries require self-sufficiency, language (in fact Switzerland looks a little easier on this), no criminal background, an integration test to be taken (and both seem easy) and time in the country.

Only major difference seems to me is Germany takes 5 years in paper (more like 6-7 in reality with bureaucracy) and Switzerland takes 10 years in paper.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#106

Post by epolanski »

geremiiah wrote: post #76
epolanski wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's they? > If these guys are such GDP rocket fuel and a solution, they can make their own country the best in the world. Not every country in the world gives the same opportunities, it's only natural many motivated individuals may try their chances elsewhere, I see nothing wrong with it. I'm an European and I have many grandparents and their relatives who emigrated to Argentina, US, Canada a century or so ago. My…

IDK about Argentina, but the US, Australia and Canada went through the whole cycle post WWII. At first they opened up their borders because they were in need of workers. However, at some point, due to various factors, including rising anti-immigration sentiments, they retightened their immigration policies again. This all happened pre-1990s. And all of those are immigration countries, unlike countries in Europe.

Mate, none of those governments were led by natives but immigrants and their descendants.

Unless you live under a rock it's not Crazy Horse or Geronimo sitting in the white house, but a descendant of immigrants.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#107

Post by neofrommatrix »

roysting wrote: post #97
brightbeige wrote: post #68

Recent, related New Yorker article that goes into the background leading up to the vote https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/06/15/could-switzerl... Despite the prosperity, many Swiss had mixed emotions about the guest workers, who came largely from Southern Europe. As the Swiss novelist Max Frisch observed, “We wanted workers, but we got people.”

[flagged]

What did I just read!? Looks like an AI trained exclusively on 4chan

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#108

Post by kgwgk »

FabCH wrote: post #78
viking123 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then do like UAE? No permanent residency or naturalization

We do. Swiss naturalization is famously difficult. But EU citizens can basically live forever in CH even though technically they don’t have permanent residency.

There are 40k naturalisations each year (a similar number relative to population as in the US). Around 13% of the Swiss citizens have acquired the nationality via naturalisation (8% in the US).

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#109

Post by Muromec »

lostlogin wrote: post #85
viking123 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then do like UAE? No permanent residency or naturalization

Amnesty International report that things are fairly bad in the UAE for foreign workers. https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-af...

That is kinda the intention, not the accident thing

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#110

Post by tadfisher »

Avicebron wrote: post #91
andrewmutz wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a person relocates to a country where their labor is more productive, a large amount of new economic value is created. Much of that value is captured by the migrant through higher earnings, but a lot also accrues to the people in the community they join. So an engineer joining a country that already has engineers still creates a ton of value in the destination country

And if they displace someone trying to join the engineering workforce say right out of school? What about housing?

Look up the "lump of labour fallacy". The jobs market is not a zero-sum thing.
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